Selling A Few Fine Foals...

[Gary Cooper]

LOL... You all are throwing extra emotion in with my words again !! I love Mallory and Laura and ALWAYS listen to what they say to me ! And you to Rob ! But.... the thing with the "Dam" side of things just does not fit very well. Gotta throw those stats out the window or you will never sell a horse !

[Rob Canterbury]

Gary I think you are demonstrating one of the biggest problems with breeding.. so many people send nags to the superstar studs and assume they will have a great foal..

you will notice that quality Broodmares are worth their weight in gold and are held very tightly..

Occassionally you will have a nonwinning dam foal a really nice racer..but that is really rare.

I would have to disagree with you the Quality of the Dam and the Dam family has EVERYTHING to do with the success of a SIM racehorse..


A bad Dam sent to a great Stud (even with a pretty cross) doesn't assure you of anything...

Take a looka t the high priced yearlings that are sold..you will almost always see they are out of impressive dam's

[Gary Cooper]

You are right Rob... and that is the way I looked at it. I looked further back than the Dam herself and to the generation before her and so forth. I thought that was a nice strong line. I never just look at the Dam.

[Mallory Claire]

I just wanted to say I didn't mean to kick off the drama! I know the game can be confusing when you see $7 million yearlings at auction and then your first foals hardly cause interest. I was simply trying to alleviate some of the misunderstandings. I'm slowly backing away now. :ph34r: :rolleyes:

[Ryen Hanna]

I just thought I'd throw my two cents in here.

I don't remember the last time I bought a horse as a foal unless it was the result of a personal deal and the cross was thought up by me.

If a horse is a yearling, its dam had better have either done something on the track or produced something on the track in order for me to even consider buying it.

A lot of people sell horses for overpriced amounts - and if you'll notice, people aren't buying them.

Occasionally, a price can be warranted based on the sire. For example, I'm sure there are people who would love to buy a Barbaro baby for a little more than they would if it were a different sire with the same mare. But typically, the dam's going to play a huge role in a person's decision to buy a horse.

In real life, this is different because people would actually be able to see the horse in person, and excellent conformation in connection with a good sire may outweigh a mare's lack of reproductive excellence. Case in point: The Green Monkey. He is by Forestry, who has proven to be a decent sire (he has produced 9% stakes winners from all crops), and out of Magical Masquerade, who has produced nothing yet to race and she herself was only an allowance runner. (I actually followed her through her entire career and I remember she broke her maiden when I was at Pimlico and I tore Susie's arm off as I was running to a TV monitor to watch!)

But the shortcomings of his pedigree were made up for in the fact that he is a positively GORGEOUS horse. He is well put-together and well-balanced, and he proved he could move well to boot, and because of that, he brought $16,000,000 when his pedigree may have only warranted a $500,000 price tag.

And you know why he may have brought $500k in the first place? His female family. While Magical Masquerade may not have been much of a runner, her 1/2 sister Magicalmysterycat sure was.

My point, and I do have one, is that without the benefit of having a horse right before your eyes, you HAVE to take into consideration the female side of the family. When you look at auction pages, the sire gets a little paragraph, and then the ENTIRE rest of the page is dedicated to the dam line, going back two to four generations.

Anyway, I sell my horses for $10,000 myself. If I don't want them, why would I expect others to pay a lot for them? Personally, I keep most of my babies until I see what they can do on the track. Sometimes you'll find one worth more than what it would have sold for. Sometimes it's just chance.

All of this was my way of saying that for me, the dam line is nearly everything. A good cross is important, but the best cross in the world may not improve a mare who hasn't produced anything good enough to pay for her board.

EDIT: Oops, I accidentally said Magicalmysterycat and Magical Masquerade were 3/4 sisters the first time around. Fixed! Also, I thought it was worth mentioning that Magical Masquerade is also a half-sister to Tsumujikaze, a millionaire in Japan.

[Mallory Claire]

I don't remember the last time I bought a horse as a foal unless it was the result of a personal deal and the cross was thought up by me.

If a horse is a yearling, its dam had better have either done something on the track or produced something on the track in order for me to even consider buying it.

In real life, this is different because people would actually be able to see the horse in person, and excellent conformation in connection with a good sire may outweigh a mare's lack of reproductive excellence. Case in point: The Green Monkey. He is by Forestry, who has proven to be a decent sire (he has produced 9% stakes winners from all crops), and out of Magical Masquerade, who has produced nothing yet to race and she herself was only an allowance runner. (I actually followed her through her entire career and I remember she broke her maiden when I was at Pimlico and I tore Susie's arm off as I was running to a TV monitor to watch!)

But the shortcomings of his pedigree were made up for in the fact that he is a positively GORGEOUS horse. He is well put-together and well-balanced, and he proved he could move well to boot, and because of that, he brought $16,000,000 when his pedigree may have only warranted a $500,000 price tag.

And you know why he may have brought $500k in the first place? His female family. While Magical Masquerade may not have been much of a runner, her 3/4 sister Magicalmysterycat sure was.

Yes, yes, and YES. I think the interview Chris Briggs did on my breeding philosophies makes clear how I feel about the female family of a horse. :rolleyes:

Also, Magicalmysterycat! Embrace's second dam. I didn't realize they were related to The Green Monkey, that makes me happy.

[Ryen Hanna]

I looooooooooooooooved Magicalmysterycat back in the day. I love that whole family!!

[Krystle Yanagihara]

I have to say, I own one of those special rare broodmares who did absolutely nothing on the track, but became a beautiful producer, throwing me nice foals every time.

<a href='http://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.php?HorseID=2560' target='_blank'>She's So Unusual</a>

But this is a very rare occurence. I must stress the very rare. I haven't been able to hit another jewel in the rough with other mares.

I think you would have done much better if you had sold the foals as yearlings. People would be more willing to take a chance on them, seeing how you'd have to pay board for them for one year, versus two to earn back their purchase price. Also, waiting a whole two years to race the foal, might end up costing you the equivalent of your original purchase price.

[Gary Cooper]

Wow ! You did hit the jackpot on that mare !! I think Gary now knows not to put up foals for auction...

[Paul Sellers]

Occassionally you will have a nonwinning dam foal a really nice racer..but that is really rare.

Really rare? Let's just look at this year's 3-year-old crop:

Curlin - Nonwinning Dam
Scat Daddy - Nonwinning Dam
Teuflesberg - Nonwinning Dam
Zanjero- Nonwinning Dam
Sedgefield - Nonwinning Dam

And Nobiz Like Shobiz and Any Given Saturday's Dams had only a single maiden win to their credit.

To say that it is really rare is uninformed ... happens ALL the time.

[Mallory Claire]

Occassionally you will have a nonwinning dam foal a really nice racer..but that is really rare.

Really rare? Let's just look at this year's 3-year-old crop:

Curlin - Nonwinning Dam
Scat Daddy - Nonwinning Dam
Teuflesberg - Nonwinning Dam
Zanjero- Nonwinning Dam
Sedgefield - Nonwinning Dam

And Nobiz Like Shobiz and Any Given Saturday's Dams had only a single maiden win to their credit.

To say that it is really rare is uninformed ... happens ALL the time.

Again, new players should keep in mind that this is not real life. This is the SIM, and it gets wacky sometimes. That said, I don't think Rob meant it NEVER happens in the SIM...it's just unlikely that a non-winning, unplaced mare will be throwing G1 winners. Doesn't mean she won't throw a decent allowance horse.

On a sidenote, I don't know why everyone tends to be so full of attitude in this thread. It's not doing anyone any favors. As Mr. Xett says, AIF.

[Nathan Sellers]

On a sidenote, I don't know why everyone tends to be so full of attitude in this thread. It's not doing anyone any favors. As Mr. Xett says, AIF.

Haha... I kind of like the feistiness. It could produce some good SIMRivalries.

Make foals, not war!

[S.C. Burns]

Dang, everyone needs to chill.

And if we're sayin' that non-winning mares shouldn't really be bred, then next year's Foal Announcements thread should only have about 5 or so pages on it.
^_^

[Rob Canterbury]

First songandaprayer you may want to check the forum rules as you are supposed to enter under your game name..

secondly..I should take this opportunity to back track a little bit.. I didn't do a very good job of making my point.. I was simply trying to make sure that people didn't understate the value of the Dam when breeding.. Everyone gets very excited about going to the superstar stallions ( and I do as well) but one can't forget to look at the value of the Dam and the Dam line.. ( in fact I learn so much from Mallory or some of the other veteran trainers when they explain the pedigree of some of their breedings and why they were drawn to it.. often going back to the 2nd or third dam in the line)

When you look at the very successful SIM horses you will usually see they are bred by successful winning Mares...

should we still try to catch lightning in a bottle...OF COURSE (many of my homebreds come from nonwinning dams) but we can't expect to get a ton from those foals/yearlings.

I am sorry if I came accross the worng way..

Happy Racing and PEACE

[Eric Nalbone]

I have to say, I own one of those special rare broodmares who did absolutely nothing on the track, but became a beautiful producer, throwing me nice foals every time.

<a href='http://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.php?HorseID=2560' target='_blank'>She's So Unusual</a>

But this is a very rare occurence. I must stress the very rare. I haven't been able to hit another jewel in the rough with other mares.

I think you would have done much better if you had sold the foals as yearlings. People would be more willing to take a chance on them, seeing how you'd have to pay board for them for one year, versus two to earn back their purchase price. Also, waiting a whole two years to race the foal, might end up costing you the equivalent of your original purchase price.

Ah but here's the catch: nonwinning broodmares who have been PROPERLY MANAGED are unlikely to start throwing successful foals. Based on what your mare has done as a producer, which is to sire horses who were at their best as late-maturing turf horses, she was probably a late maturing turf horse herself.

She was tried on turf in the first three starts of her career, then moved over to dirt. Additionally, she's old enough that she's still from back in the days before running lines and when we still manually typed in the equipment we wanted on a horse (i.e. *Show Your Stuff* written as part of her "equipment" in one race). Given the DRAMATIC turnarond that you can sometimes see when horses get blinkers, or a tongue tie, or lasix, or whatever, with mares like this its much harder to assess whether she really was properly managed.

That, I suppose, makes the case for giving all mares a shot, particularly if there's anything in a pedigree to suggest that it was never really placed in situations that gave it the opportunity to succeed. Aaanyway... just my $.02.

As far as this thread... Keep it in the realm of civil discourse, but everyone's doing well enough so far. I'll twist Nathan's statement around a little bit and say "Make war if you want, but do it on the racetrack instead of on the forum."