Master of Deception

[Gavin Guile]

So I just retired Master of Deception one of the best 4 year old DR racers in the game (based on his race results). He also has the “breeding shed” comment.. “ Oh, my! 'Master of Deception' is a freak! This horse looks to be a late bloomer. You should bring him along carefully. I'm really hoping to see 'Master of Deception' in the breeding shed one day!”.

As it has been reported this mean his “breeding number” is better than his “racing number”…and since we have established that he’s one of the best racers this would logically lead me to believe he would have to be one of the best breeders in the game…

Now I have my brother’s mare Perfect Shadow that has a mix of A+ and A hypos…how does she hypo A to MoD and not A+? Hypos have to be broken for me to make sense of this? I don’t get it…why have the breeding shed comment if it doesn’t mean anything? Or if it does mean something and MoD is actually a top sire, why does Perfect Shadow only get an A hypo compared to A+’s? Are hypo’s broken? I’m trying to use logic here but something isn’t adding up.

[The Steward]

I don't think I follow. Just because he's one of the best racers, and will in theory be a star sire, doesn't mean he's better than every other stallion already in the game? Not to mention hypos also include other generations, so it's not just him + her = hypo, it's grandsires and stuff involved.

So the TL;DR version is that yes his breeding prowess should be really good, but that doesn't automatically make him hypo better than others, who might have also had the "breeding shed" number but gone even higher than he did.

For example (these numbers are made up), let's say his racing ability at 1 1/4 miles was a 10, and his breeding ability is an 11. Thus, breeding shed comment. But Silver Charm's breeding ability is a 12. He would be the A+ hypo, regardless of how MOD was on the track.

[Gavin Guile]

Okay but how much higher can breeding shed scale go than racing? His racing number has to be the very top of racing numbers…and the breeding number is higher than that but the scale may be different? Or there are a lot of sires that get to the top of the scale?

On a scale of 1-20 his racing number should be around 19.5 my guess would be… I assume breeding shed would mean he’d be 19.6 out of 20 or better? Are you saying a lot of other horses with racing numbers were below MoD’s got to the 19.7-20 on the breeding scale?

I mean these comments are impacting real decisions in the game, if he’s one of the best racers and his breeding shed is higher how is he not one of the best sires?

[The Steward]

Thinking it’s a bit early to say he’s not going to be a good sire. At the risk of everyone complaining on inside info - although I sincerely doubt anyone thinks he’s going to suck as a stallion - he has the exact same breeding numbers as a (long pensioned) stallion with double digit millionaires.

Also if it helps, his racing number was nowhere near that high. We still have a long way to go to hit that kind of number!

[Brian Leavitt]

Also if it helps, his racing number was nowhere near that high. We still have a long way to go to hit that kind of number!

So what you're saying is that the dirt version of Sidney hasn't happened yet

[Gigi Gofaster]

I don't think the best horses are at 'maxed out' at the top of the scale (or if there even is a maximum racing or breeding score). So maybe MoD is a 19 racer, and that's the highest current racing score, and let's say Valley of Fire was a 14 racer, MoD could be a 20 sire but Valley of Fire a 21 (in other words, Valley of Fire really hit the slide in breeding ability). The breeding comment only tells that the breeding ability is higher than the racing ability, but not how much higher. I mean, everything about him says he's going to a seriously good stallion, just maybe not wildly better than he was a racer. But he doesn't need to be to still be seriously top class in the shed.

[Gavin Guile]

I’m just trying to understand how these comments are supposed to impact the game (what should I believe with the breeding shed comment on a race horse of his caliber)…I was expecting top hypos that matched the other top sires….people use hypos to determine the value of stallions/crosses and in DR top sires get A+’s…I’ve only seen A’s in the small sample size with MoD but they were top mares…

If the breeding scale and race scales are no where near their maxes then in theory these comments mean very little if a race horse is a 5 on a 1-10 scale but then is a 6 on the breeding shed when most race horses are 4’s on the racing scale but can range from 5-8 on the breeding scale… so getting the breeding shed just means his number is higher but since there is so much room to the max level it’s not really a gauge that can be used in any meaningful way?

[Mr. Lord Rich]

no way you should retire a horse week 6 in the prime of their career just because it says "breeding shed" in his comments. I'm sorry but that just doesn't make sense to me. At least finish the season off.

[Laura Ferguson]

And the hypos are just one part of it, one that I think many players overemphasize (how many times do you see people saying my A+ hypo galloped allowance, as if an A+ hypo guarantees a freak). For example, Valley of Fire, for all his numbers, gets a lot of nice horses, including last year's Oaks winner, but I don't think he had any Derby/Oaks runners this year. Similarly, Maelstrom, who sired multiple Derby winners, usually hypoed slightly below some of the top hypoing stallions. Honestly, if I like the cross, I don't pay attention to what the hypo is.

Remember, you only get two comments re: breeding shed - breeding shed or longer career. That really doesn't give you much to go with, compared to the range of gallop comments from freak to different career, or bloodstock comments for mares. We've had numerous posts about top mares who got longer career and still got the blue hen comment or hypoed well upon retirement. At best, I think what the breeding shed comment really gives you is that, based on his racing numbers, he shouldn't be a dud, and you'd expect he'd be hypoing A/A+, rather than B/B+. How he ultimately fares as a stallion will depend on the mares he gets, how well they complement him, and whether the foals get a decent slide. There's always a lot of variation. It's a tool that gives you a little more information, but it's not one I would (or do) rely heavily on.

[Gwen Morse]

As it has been reported this mean his “breeding number” is better than his “racing number”…and since we have established that he’s one of the best racers this would logically lead me to believe he would have to be one of the best breeders in the game…

You're making a rookie mistake which is confusing "one of the best of his crop" for "one of the best in the whole game" when (insured) stallions are guaranteed to last until 14. He's *your* best, he's not the apex of the whole game.

There are lots of other "breeding shed" stallions out there. Many stallions can have higher breeding numbers than MoD while having lesser race records and some will hypo better too.

I’m just trying to understand how these comments are supposed to impact the game (what should I believe with the breeding shed comment on a race horse of his caliber)…I was expecting top hypos that matched the other top sires…people use hypos to determine the value of stallions/crosses and in DR top sires get A+’s…I’ve only seen A’s in the small sample size with MoD but they were top mares…

What you should understand is now is the time to *THANK* the Steward for all but telling you MoD will be a 'star' sire.

- Hypos are not the stallion's breeding number. We know this already.
- Hypos don't guarantee foals of a particular skill/quality level.
- The longer career/breeding shed comments lets you know whether a horse has a higher racing number or breeding number. It doesn't tell you how big either number is.
- The final measure of breeding ability for a stallion or mare is their foal record. Hypos, BSAs, and gallop comments are all just hints.
- The Steward is never going to give us comments that will help us pinpoint *exactly* how good a horse is so don't make any firm decisions about a horse based purely on their gallop comments.

Your stallion won a bunch of G1 races but he's not one of the best to have ever come out of the sim. So what you should understand is that you built him up in your head to be a perfect 20 and he's not. It's a disappointment, not a Shakespearean tragedy.

Also, please keep in mind that this is a public forum which means other people see your posts and there are ripples to other players. When very successful players come onto the forums and have freak-outs because their elite horses are some small degree off from their expectation of perfection, it upsets less successful players too.

If there's something "wrong" with MoD because he "only" hypos "A" to elite mares, what does that say to a struggling player whose new stallion hypos "A-"? Or the people who get upset over galloping less freaks than they expected. How do you think the players who struggle to gallop a couple stakes foals feel to see some elite player crying to "only" have gotten 10 freaks at Festivus.

It reinforces the mindset that anything less than perfection (which no one can live up to) is abject failure and it discourages newer/struggling players from sticking with the game.

Thinking it’s a bit early to say he’s not going to be a good sire. At the risk of everyone complaining on inside info - although I sincerely doubt anyone thinks he’s going to suck as a stallion - he has the exact same breeding numbers as a (long pensioned) stallion with double digit millionaires.

Emily, any time you want to give me some feedback on my colts or fillies, I will kneel down and thank you .

Also, please don't take the new gallop comments away just because some people throw tantrums.

[Gavin Guile]

Hey Gwen, respectfully, it’s not a “rookie” mistake when there have been countless forum posts about these comments and how they work. I misunderstood how they worked….i figured it was based on a percentage scale that was the same (i.e. he’s in the top 95% of runners, then with breeding shed I figured he’d be top 95% of stallions). What I learned is they are a sliding scale that don’t really pertain to each other so it doesn’t offer much insight (Laura F’ had the best take away in that the stud will probably not be a dud but other than that, who knows). I assumed a freak race horse with his record would be a top sire…how many foal posts you see where people are excited that a freak is also breeding shed (now we have better idea what this means).

As for the rest of your post? The steward messaged me when he was a foal saying “WOW” and said he was going to be special, I have never had that before. And I think he was pretty special and lived up to it on the track..this post is how the breeding shed comment should be interpreted compared to racing ability…but if you want to insult my horse then fine…Who are you to say he’s not apex of the game??

My goal isn’t to worry how this impacts newer players, it’s to help everyone who is playing the game understand the game to make more informed decisions. We are given this information, how do we use it?. And fine, the steward said he would be a good sire, I won’t stand him so I don’t get any benefit from others knowing that info, I’ll just breed to him like I would’ve anyway and I won’t get any stud fees - I’m used to playing the game without that income anyways. I could’ve sent these questions directly to the steward rather than forum post and it wouldn’t be public info - this is how we learn about the game

[Rochelle Bos]

no way you should retire a horse week 6 in the prime of their career just because it says "breeding shed" in his comments. I'm sorry but that just doesn't make sense to me. At least finish the season off.

I was shocked by this as well. There is never a guarantee on breeding quality. He’s a router and only 4, he probably would have run well until 6

[Laura Ferguson]

Well, I hope you reconsider your decision to essentially stand him privately, but at the end of the day, that is your call.

[The Steward]

I sincerely regret to all that I felt like trying to diffuse the situation by explaining things - which I felt like was the right call - which currently looks like what I generated was a nice stallion being private.

That was, obviously, not my intention.

[Gavin Guile]

It’s not your fault Em, I’m just tired of explaining myself when I feel like I just get constantly criticized or attacked here (someone saying I lost my mind for retiring a horse, then players saying I’m shady for not giving a new player a free breeding to a stewardbred mare (which I never agreed to), I get I play differently than others and retire early, and now players saying I’m getting extra benefit from info being revealed here about my stallion)

I can’t win…but I’m trying my best, I stopped giving out free leases and it’s easier to just say I won’t stand the stud so I don’t get any benefit from info that shouldn’t be public.

My intention was to clarify how these comments work and should be utilized by players in the game..I highlighted the hypos as I felt that showed how the comments don’t work. The steward did a good job explaining it and I feel like we are all more informed