Stewardbreds and Taxes

[Laura Ferguson]

My two cents' for whatever that's worth.

I think sending a horse younger than three to AJ should cost $10,000, not $1,000. Right now, sending a horse to AJ costs less than the board and dayrate to keep the horse. That's a relatively painless (and optional) way to get money out of the game. I think one of the reasons players think that horses don't really improve with age is that there are probably more horses that do improve, but never got a chance to show it because they were killed off in the annual AJ purge. I don't think it is a fee that is high enough to discourage breeding a marginal mare, but $1,000 might as well be zero.

As for TBS band, most players aren't going to sell their best broodmare prospects to the Steward for cash, especially if the number of TBS yearlings they could buy is limited. I don't sell/lease mares to the Steward for cash for exactly that reason. Similarly, the Steward can't race fillies that she breeds and wants to keep as a future TBS broodmare, and players aren't going to pay as much for a foal out of an unraced dam. So, replacement broodmares have to come from somewhere. That's where that two for one lease works, which is publicly posted: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32251&p=305044&hilit=lease#p305044

So, instead of up front cash, I get to keep the racetrack earnings, and depending on the deal, either get to breed one foal, or no foal. They're not all world-beaters. I've raced several that it's been a struggle to get a stakes win/over $100k in earnings and I would have been better off getting up front six figure cash. Others have been G1 winners. There's also no guarantee that the foal I breed is going to be any good. Some are, some are decidedly not. In each case, the Steward gets three new broodmares for TBS at the end of their racing career.

I honestly think it is going to be harder for the Steward to sell this kind of deal going forward, because I don't want one of my limited three spots filled by a horse that I'm not going to keep for more than racetrack earnings and one foal. I'd rather fill those spots with horses I'm going to own outright. I also have even less need for cash with the new Steward-bred limits. It might appeal to others who aren't going to buy three, but again, it comes down to giving up fillies out of your better broodmares as part of the deal.

There's never going to be a perfect system, but the TBS auction is popular, and future broodmares have to come from somewhere.

Most of the arguments re: TBS have been made for years. It's a balancing act between sucking money out of the game and providing an opportunity to buy a yearling. The current system (bigger auction, limit two) seems to do a better job of that without being time consuming like some of the other suggestions that have been made over the years. There's always going to be more demand than supply, so there's never going to be a perfect solution to this, either.

[Brad Searcy]

Just out of curiousity, how much is $600 million really? What is the total purse value of all races in a sim year, and what percentage of that figure does 600 million represent? I'd have a hard time even making a guess on that...

[Carole Hanson]

In terms of partnerships, in real life, I'm pretty sure people set them up to profit and not for fun. I know this is a game, not real life but I don't see a problem with people wanting to profit off of a partnership. Not like only select people can form these. So whilst yes I agree that same people forming multiple partnerships and getting more SB's that way is wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong with partnerships standing studs for example.

As for TBS auctions/horses, some people make it sound as if people with a lot of money in the game are just lucky to have that money. Sorry, but this is not like real life in this case. You can't be lucky enough to be born into a super rich family or something like that, everyone starts at the bottom and has to work their way up. Why should the elite be punished for it? By that I mean, if they can afford to own the current limit of SB horses, let them. They deserve it. I think it would be an awful idea to reduce the number from 3 to just 1. And I get it, it's frustrating for players like you or me to see the big stables consistently winning top races and not getting those kind of results yourself. But perhaps instead of being jealous of those people and trying to bring them down, you can look at what they do and try to emulate it. And this includes, Steward bred horses. There's no rule that says you cannot look at SB horses' pedigree and figure out why certain crosses work. I think my main point is, stop focusing on what other people are doing and focus on your own stable.

As for taxes, honestly, I have no opinion on this one.

[Lori Hamill]

I vote a big fat NO to taxes. I run a huge barn and it harms nobody. I shouldn't be punished because I run numerous divisions and never have a large bank account. The real issue is people being allowed to own over the limit with these partnerships. Limit the amount of Steward breds that can be owned. Or I like Cleo's idea best... only players can buy Steward breds and Partnerships cannot and a person can only buy 3 steward breds of a certain year. This isn't complicated. No need to being dramatic and take away TBS sales because a handful of people think they are being crafty by owning two partnerships together to get more Steward breds.

This ^^^^^^^^

[Lori Hamill]

Also I find it interesting that some people are very up in arms with the idea of increased fees but at the same time this has happened in the past without major disruption (assuming the increases were minimal) I am pretty sure when I first started playing farms could have free board at the very least they could definitely have $5 board now its $20 or higher. There wasn't a mass exodus when that change occurred that I remember.

I believe there was some grumbling when the $20 minimum was announced. (Although lets face it, $20 is about as cheap as you can get or anything, anywhere.) I'm still a believer that at least one farm near Trial Park should have been left at 0.

I also think there are quite a few of us that are still not happy with the whole insurance cost thing.

Most of us truly love and enjoy this game and are willing to accept a lot of things we may not always agree with because the Sim means so much to us.

[Kent Saunders]

"Now the thorniest problem of all. The Steward leasing out horses to certain players. That gives them a huge advantage. Look at Tammy's figures above. Nobody can argue that point". Not necessarily...I'm on the list and I have done exactly one Steward lease in 17 seasons. I did sell her 2 outright about 10 seasons ago. The rest were purchased legitimately via auctions or sales. I also have about $30m of really nice Formidable mares in my barn...lol! I guess one question I would have is why Em can't go back to buying mares outright as opposed to the current leasing strategy. She could do a season to season lease auction to let people bid on the right to race at 2 and 3 prior to retirement? Win Win?

[Kaine Saracen]

I have noticed a lot of opinions here. Most are directly related to a persons individual satisfaction and not towards the advancement of the game in general. Threatening to take your bat and ball and head home because a potential change may inconvenience you in a more than likely MINOR way. Sure I gripe a lot to when I think things are not right, but I am not going to rage quit (might have improved a little since the 30's) just because of it. What I would rather do is look for solutions to the problems that may benefit the majority (or not depending on individual perspective). So. I played with some numbers:

As things currently stand, the day rate for a horse is a mere $560 a season (approx. 112 days). A serious hike to $25 would increase that to a still reasonable $2,800 a season., the more subtle $15 a day is $1680 a season.

Studs are another frequently overlooked cash cow, there is no encouragement to meet the guidelines due to no standing fee in place and the fact that an inexplicable scenario like Snowflake is apparently a thing. My suggestion here would be a flat $25,000 annual fee, this will remove the "unworthy", clear the $200 earners from the stud books and generally make breeding a more enjoyable time overall.

Breeding of the mares... That was suggested in the other thread and I kind of liked the idea. Paying a flat "nursing" fee plus a travel fee to the studs location is a great idea. The figure I dredged up here was $5,000 plus travel costs.

At first glance I imagine that the penny pinchers would squawk due to the figures suggested, but at the end of the day a horse that can't earn $2,800 a year is unlikely to be a benefit to the sim population going forward (there are some really rare cases).
The standing fee for a stud is minimal if you take into account that a public stud should earn more than that a season, if it isn't then is it really worth standing?
Finally, the mare breeding fee. Bottom line, costs are to low and promote the usage of less than good mares based on a numbers game that encourages the breeding of 100's with the hope of getting just a few good ones.

As for the overall numbers:
50,000 horses day rate@$25, breeding of 20,000 mares and the current list of 1819 stallions: $289,475,000.00
50,000 horses day rate@$15, breeding of 20,000 mares and the current list of 1819 stallions: $163,075,000.00
50,000 horses day rate@$10, breeding of 20,000 mares and the current list of 1819 stallions: $123,875,000.00
These are ballpark figure numbers because I don't know the exact numbers.

TAXES: The devil's spawn, huh? Well if you objected to the former numbers, maybe entertain an idea where you are instead taxed on profit for the season. This protects the low income earners and is unlikely to impact the high impact earners in a major way other than offending ones entitled attitude.

Now for the fun bit, TBS sales and steward mare leases. Bottom line, they need to stay: I don't appreciate the fact I am continually getting my homebreds beaten by a stewbred, but the majority of players hold the goal of owning a stewbred as a high end game achievement.

What I do think needs to happen is a lot more transparency on the steward deals. For me, this would include a new forum section where any or all deals made by the steward with players is pretty much catalogued for all to see. Even I would admit that some of the deals that look questionable, biased or "unfair" may not appear that way if it was all in the open.

Ronnie's Bakers dozen is a rather perplexing list considering 13 players own nearly as many stewbreds as she has bred total the last 4 seasons, but having said that, several of the players on that list actively chase the pinhooks after the auctions and in some cases pay legit good prices (I know that for a fact ).
Not overly impressed that legal pinhooking got killed considering the ease with which it can be circumvented still.

Oh and Partnerships, I figure they are here to stay, regardless of loopholes, they attract income for management.

And now I need a breather

[Tammy Stawicki]

Yea, if some of these real life pedigree horses that stand for game points stood for a fee in the Steward's barn, that would also drain some of the money. Didn't she stand July for awhile?

She did indeed stand July for awhile. Though to clarify I was not talking the game point sires which I think serve a good purpose as game point sires of bringing in needed real money to keep the game running, but rather the made up horses that are sold to players. So in mixer land you had the holiday sires, Dashin JJ, EC Jet One, I'm a Fancy PYC, etc. These have all been very successful stallions and have managed to bring their owners a lot of money. Now admittedly their initial purchase did bring some money out of the sim but I'm guessing in most cases they could have brought more money out had the steward been standing them herself. Now admittedly I have one of those sires so maybe its hypocritical of me to say no one else should have them now that I do.

"Now the thorniest problem of all. The Steward leasing out horses to certain players... I guess one question I would have is why Em can't go back to buying mares outright as opposed to the current leasing strategy. She could do a season to season lease auction to let people bid on the right to race at 2 and 3 prior to retirement? Win Win?

I think this goes back to what Laura said that players might not be as interested in selling her horses as they would be in the current leasing strategy. Particularly buying outright. Now I've never had a mare the steward has shown interest in but if I did finally get one that nice I wouldn't want to then sell it off. I already have more sim money than I know what to do with (which is why I am not as appalled with the tax idea as others) so why give up my one nice mare for money I don't need. Though I would probably consider leasing the mare for a year for money though as I'd still have the other foals and hey I could then turn around and breed a full sib to whatever the steward did.

The other thought on bringing in new bloodlines if the whole leasing thing is too controversial and related to my above comments on stallions would be the steward just making new mares. I know this has been done in the past. Actually my first big horse was a stewardbred that came from a special sale because she had just made up a whole bunch of new mares and wanted to sell the first crop instead of auction.

Though I guess what it really comes down to is yes there are some issues with stewardbreds but The Steward puts a lot of time, effort, sweat, tears, etc into this game and as mentioned previously this is the one way she gets to participate as a player, so I am fine with whatever is best for her. If she likes the current system then lets see how things go with the new limits (which will also affect the leasing) if she thinks stewardbreds are more drama than they are worth lets try something new.

[Kent Saunders]

I guess I just don't see the whole Em can't find good mares to buy thing. She breeds 200 or so a season, 20-25 newbie mares a season would keep the operation running and that doesn't take into account where she breeds her own mare and keeps the foal for future breeding purposes. She typically doesn't go looking for all the SC Champs...her choices appears to be mares that were decent but not spectacular on the track with nice breeding. She could also "Keep" nice mares out of dispersal's rather than letting them all go Via AJ. I can't speak for anyone else but I would gladly work with her on one mare a season to help keep the SB auctions running. Yes, you still have the whole why did she pick "His" mares and not mine thing...but life isn't perfect and no game I ever played has been either. I like and respect Em greatly for many reasons and have never felt "Cheated" even when decisions or rules didn't go my way. At some point you have to trust management or why play? I do now and will continue to do so. I love the game...I like the players (by and large and it a great hobby that is much cheaper than Bowling or Golf...lol!

[Brian Leavitt]

As self-centered as my take is going to sound, between the recent TBS auctions being just every yearling in one auction and the fact that my stable has generally been more successful recently, I feel like, for the first time in playing this game in over 10 real life years, that I can seriously have a shot at getting a Stewardbred horse each season, and I don't feel like having that taken away and replaced with a dumb tax because the same small handful of people have repeatedly gamed the system again and again. I don't feel like being punished for their sins when the same less than a dozen people have been the ones manipulating the system for years and have received little to no personal consequences as a result.

[Laura Smith]

Now the thorniest problem of all. The Steward leasing out horses to certain players. That gives them a huge advantage. Look at Tammy's figures above. Nobody can argue that point.

Any new player looking at the thread where the Steward says she has " a long term partnership" with a player must be wondering if its worth staying when the playing field is so uneven.

Those getting that advantage will disagree of course. As will some others who will defend the game regardless as if its perfect. Even Emily will admit its not.

I don't see this as thorny at all. Anyone who wants to lease Em a mare and race the foal can do so -- just gotta get your hands on a mare that Em wants. This is public knowledge (there's a stickied forum post about it, though it is outdated now.)

Here is a list of people who own Steward-bred yearlings and foals, presumably mostly from such lease deals (I didn't go through them one by one, but as there hasn't been a TBS sale yet, this is a reasonable assumption.)
This is clearly not a list of "Em's friends," "the SIM illuminati" or some group of specially favoured people.
And damn! I wish I had a barn like Karl's where I had a new mare Em wanted every year!

Aidan O Brien
Ali Hedgestone
Andrew James
Brianna McKenzie
Cate Lynn
Dan Gordon
Durzo Blint
Dusty Klatt
Erin Sanderson
Gigi Gofaster
Izzy Rafferty
Jamie Bates
Karl Smythe
Kris Bobby
Mike Eaton
Randall Allen
Rochelle Zahacy
Stephen Saratoga
Xander Zone

[Laura Smith]

life isn't perfect and no game I ever played has been either. I like and respect Em greatly for many reasons and have never felt "Cheated" even when decisions or rules didn't go my way. At some point you have to trust management or why play? I do now and will continue to do so. I love the game...I like the players (by and large and it a great hobby that is much cheaper than Bowling or Golf...lol!

^^^^^^^^ x1000.

[Brian Leavitt]

As self-centered as my take is going to sound, between the recent TBS auctions being just every yearling in one auction and the fact that my stable has generally been more successful recently, I feel like, for the first time in playing this game in over 10 real life years, that I can seriously have a shot at getting a Stewardbred horse each season, and I don't feel like having that taken away and replaced with a dumb tax because the same small handful of people have repeatedly gamed the system again and again. I don't feel like being punished for their sins when the same less than a dozen people have been the ones manipulating the system for years and have received little to no personal consequences as a result.

And as an addition to this point, getting rid of TBS sales NOW disproportionately benefits those who have been able to accumulate high quality Stewardbreds over the past few years - particularly those who have inspired these changes - and disproportionately hurts us who really don't have that many but are in a position to slowly add more to improve their stable. I don't want that chance taken away from my very small stable just because certain people hoard Stewardbreds, some through shady, manipulative practices. Why should they get to have all their high quality Stewardbreds and have an automatic leg up on the rest of us who don't have many - if any at all - and would never get that chance again. Don't take something good away from everyone just because the various Xanders of the sim have found away to game the system to even bring ideas like this about in the first place.

[The Steward]

Just a heads up for all the people wondering why I've never approached about a mare... I do MAYBE two of those a season. Maybe. The rest approach me. You have to ask for me to refuse, right? And typically if it's any Thoroughbred who has earned over $400k (arbitrary, I think it looks nice) I would say I 90% of the time lease the mare.

The only instances where I turn them down are if A. They've had a ton of foals that are terrible in a row, who wants that? or B. I can't work out a monetary deal with the owner that we are both comfortable with and I walk from the table (as you guys should sometimes, too!) I'm not terribly keen on getting bombarded with offers this morning because I'm trying to get through all my mares this week, but keep it in mind for next year. I like to breed mares. There are lots of nice mares out there. I'm not going to chase them all down because I haven't even heard of a lot of them. I don't bite. You link me mares and ask if I want to lease them. Dialogue starts. It's fun!

ETA - Laura Smith's list looks good. Of all those people, I think the only one I approached was Andrew James, and he came back with a second mare for me to look at.

[Laura Ferguson]

On Ronnie's Baker's Dozen - my number's a little skewed, because I pick up stakes-winning pensioners out of AJ. 90 of my 155 are pensioned, and most of that group have a history of my purchasing them post-pension (another bunch were picked up post-retirement). The 65 active horses range from ages 14 to 2, with several of them being picked up post-retirement. That said, I would still expect to be on the high end of owners with Steward-breds even with those adjustments because have one of the higher bankrolls, buy at every TBS auction and pick up the occasional pinhook.