Simmy awards

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J.r. Lewis
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by J.r. Lewis »

Danny Derby wrote: 4 years ago I like you J.R even though we keep ending up on opposite sides of forum debates so once again nothing personal!

Comparing our respective stats, we've got a very similar number of stakes wins on the year - 69 for you, 68 for me, however one was accomplished with 16,000 fewer starts. Can I ask you how many of those 69 were G1 wins?

I'm not arguing that I specifically should have been nominated this year, but I am saying in my opinion there's a MAJOR issue with how nominations are determined, and quality of wins needs to play a much bigger role.
Definitely nothing personal, I just used our stats as we are probably the extreme ends. I think I only had 2 G1 wins so you've got way more I'm sure. My only point, in response to Andrew's I guess, is that while yes, there's more to real life than money, in a game where the ultimate goal is to buy Steward-breds to win the big races, money matters a lot. I realize you make a lot of money in stud fees but this isn't a stud fee award. Like I said, I'm sure I'm in the minority, just wanted to point out how I play the SIM and some of my thought process behind it. Hopefully I'm winning G1s on the regular once I've been here longer but I'll probably still run a big barn as I like to race a lot in every division which will "hurt" my stats.
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Danny Derby
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Danny Derby »

J.r. Lewis wrote: 4 years ago
Danny Derby wrote: 4 years ago I like you J.R even though we keep ending up on opposite sides of forum debates so once again nothing personal!

Comparing our respective stats, we've got a very similar number of stakes wins on the year - 69 for you, 68 for me, however one was accomplished with 16,000 fewer starts. Can I ask you how many of those 69 were G1 wins?

I'm not arguing that I specifically should have been nominated this year, but I am saying in my opinion there's a MAJOR issue with how nominations are determined, and quality of wins needs to play a much bigger role.
Definitely nothing personal, I just used our stats as we are probably the extreme ends. I think I only had 2 G1 wins so you've got way more I'm sure. My only point, in response to Andrew's I guess, is that while yes, there's more to real life than money, in a game where the ultimate goal is to buy Steward-breds to win the big races, money matters a lot. I realize you make a lot of money in stud fees but this isn't a stud fee award. Like I said, I'm sure I'm in the minority, just wanted to point out how I play the SIM and some of my thought process behind it. Hopefully I'm winning G1s on the regular once I've been here longer but I'll probably still run a big barn as I like to race a lot in every division which will "hurt" my stats.
As you said though, the ultimate goal is to WIN BIG RACES. Simmy nominations need to place much more weight on people who win big races.
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Brian Leavitt
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Brian Leavitt »

Danny Derby wrote: 4 years ago It feels like there's a giant preference towards quantity over quality in the trainer award nominations. Hoping that this is something the team can address in the future to even it out a bit.
I've brought this up in chat a couple times, but I'll post it here for posterity.

To me, it's a little insulting that after the best year of my career, winning multiple large races - including a Steward's Cup - on only 101 starts and having the best earnings per start stat of any thoroughbred trainer, I'm not even considered for the ballot whereas someone who runs almost primarily in very short field mixer claimers and maidens and sponsored races gets in because it's easier to win short mixer fields and get huge stats that way, in spite of them earning less than half of what I earned on 3 times as many starts/

And I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trashing the season of another player. That's the worst part about me feeling like this is that I can't really express my opinion on this without bringing down another player.
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Andrew James
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Andrew James »

J.r. Lewis wrote: 4 years ago Definitely nothing personal, I just used our stats as we are probably the extreme ends. I think I only had 2 G1 wins so you've got way more I'm sure. My only point, in response to Andrew's I guess, is that while yes, there's more to real life than money, in a game where the ultimate goal is to buy Steward-breds to win the big races, money matters a lot. I realize you make a lot of money in stud fees but this isn't a stud fee award. Like I said, I'm sure I'm in the minority, just wanted to point out how I play the SIM and some of my thought process behind it. Hopefully I'm winning G1s on the regular once I've been here longer but I'll probably still run a big barn as I like to race a lot in every division which will "hurt" my stats.
As a fellow claiming grinder I have a ton of respect for the time management and race placement skills you put on display to run and win as much as you did. However, I think you kind of illustrated my point, in that the money is just a means to an end; the end being winning the big races. Dont get me wrong you are totally deserving of a nomination, it's incredible how many wins you've managed to rack up in a short period of time. I just hope you understand that in the end, I voted for someone else to win.
AJR SC Winners: Karsa, Can't Reconcile, The Reckoners, Amsterdam, Forge of Darkness, Nightchill, The Wheel of Time
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The Steward
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by The Steward »

I'm not at all against revisiting the criteria for the award, that probably needs to happen (most G1s, highest percentage of stakes wins to starts, all good things). But I am a little surprised that people are surprised by the ballot, when it is exactly what the ballot is every year and the criteria are publish in the Help/FAQ area. For instance, while Brian (sorry Brian but you brought yourself into the fight) did have the best year of his career, there is no place in the criteria for "I did well this year!" Obviously the "person who did something special" area would go to RRH for winning two Classics, as it always does. You were never going to be considered based on the criteria of the last 30 SIM years... so it really shouldn't have been a surprise. Congrats on your best year ever though and I hope it leads to MORE best years ever!
"There's no secret to training a good horse. It's a matter of being fortunate enough to get one."
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Mr. Lord Rich
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Mr. Lord Rich »

If we are talking TB only cause mixers don’t count, this is why you should vote for me for trainer of the year:

TB stats only:
Y52: 609 : 217-137-94 Win-35.6% OTB-73.6%
Total TB stakes wins: 123 (21% stakes wins vs starts)
Total G1 wins: 20
Total Earnings: $20,135,090

Y52 Notables:
**Hear You Me wins the Desert World Cup
**Gonzo wins the Desert Mile
**Lazy Dog wins the Queens Derby
**Lazy Dog wins the Canadian Triple Crown (1st time since Y25)
**Under Stars wins the SC Juvenile Turf
**Forever With Me wins the SC Filly & Mare Turf


If we want to include the mixers, my stats get even better :)
A CAVAL DONATO NON SI GUARDA IN BOCCA
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Brian Leavitt
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Brian Leavitt »

The Steward wrote: 4 years ago I'm not at all against revisiting the criteria for the award, that probably needs to happen (most G1s, highest percentage of stakes wins to starts, all good things). But I am a little surprised that people are surprised by the ballot, when it is exactly what the ballot is every year and the criteria are publish in the Help/FAQ area. For instance, while Brian (sorry Brian but you brought yourself into the fight) did have the best year of his career, there is no place in the criteria for "I did well this year!" Obviously the "person who did something special" area would go to RRH for winning two Classics, as it always does. You were never going to be considered based on the criteria of the last 30 SIM years... so it really shouldn't have been a surprise. Congrats on your best year ever though and I hope it leads to MORE best years ever!
Well, I was more talking about my average earnings per start stat to expand on Danny's point about looking at quality, because I'm of the opinion that things like that *should* be considered for the ballot, regardless of my personal attachment. It just so happens that this is the first year where I could even try to make that argument for myself specifically, otherwise I would've said nothing about me.
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J.r. Lewis
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by J.r. Lewis »

Let's be clear, I'm not saying I should win. There are 3 HOFs, and others that will be soon no doubt, in the vote and surely 1 of them will win. I think, to Brian's point, the couple others, including myself, were nominated for doing things the SIM hasn't seen before.
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Brian Leavitt
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Brian Leavitt »

J.r. Lewis wrote: 4 years ago Let's be clear, I'm not saying I should win. There are 3 HOFs, and others that will be soon no doubt, in the vote and surely 1 of them will win. I think, to Brian's point, the couple others, including myself, were nominated for doing things the SIM hasn't seen before.
Because you are a madman, a legend of Kwokian proportions.

And I mean this as a compliment btw
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Tom Lin
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Tom Lin »

Rochelle Zahacy wrote: 4 years ago
Danny Derby wrote: 4 years ago While I'm on about the Trainer awards, let me throw this out there as well. This needs to be split up, so there's a Champion TB Trainer and a Champion Mixer Trainer.
I love this idea
Agreed!
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Danny Derby
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Danny Derby »

The Steward wrote: 4 years ago I'm not at all against revisiting the criteria for the award, that probably needs to happen (most G1s, highest percentage of stakes wins to starts, all good things). But I am a little surprised that people are surprised by the ballot, when it is exactly what the ballot is every year and the criteria are publish in the Help/FAQ area. For instance, while Brian (sorry Brian but you brought yourself into the fight) did have the best year of his career, there is no place in the criteria for "I did well this year!" Obviously the "person who did something special" area would go to RRH for winning two Classics, as it always does. You were never going to be considered based on the criteria of the last 30 SIM years... so it really shouldn't have been a surprise. Congrats on your best year ever though and I hope it leads to MORE best years ever!
For the record I'm not surprised at the ballot which I knew would be bad as always. Just reiterating for the umpteemth time that it needs to be fixed - hopefully it is for Year 53, and hopefully the community gets some say.

Also pointing out again that TB and Mixer trainer Simmys have to be separated.
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Kaine Saracen
Listed Stakes Winner
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Kaine Saracen »

The Steward wrote: 4 years ago I'm not at all against revisiting the criteria for the award, that probably needs to happen (most G1s, highest percentage of stakes wins to starts, all good things). But I am a little surprised that people are surprised by the ballot, when it is exactly what the ballot is every year and the criteria are publish in the Help/FAQ area. For instance, while Brian (sorry Brian but you brought yourself into the fight) did have the best year of his career, there is no place in the criteria for "I did well this year!" Obviously the "person who did something special" area would go to RRH for winning two Classics, as it always does. You were never going to be considered based on the criteria of the last 30 SIM years... so it really shouldn't have been a surprise. Congrats on your best year ever though and I hope it leads to MORE best years ever!
I would go further and suggest the whole Simmy's Award system needs an overhaul.
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Carolyn Eaton
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Carolyn Eaton »

I was just happy to get 3 of my fillies nominated; I do think Brian was seriously overlooked - nominated trainers should be in each category - highest # of wins, highest % wins, highest earnings per runner, highest # stakes wins and/ or highest # of GSW (of note - I have NEVER been # 1 in any category and would likely eliminate myself from future contention with those criteria), and likely "special accomplishment"
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Laura Smith
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Laura Smith »

For those who want the Simmy process overhauled, I ask how exactly?
The human Simmys, sure. Those are weird.
But horse-wise? We used to do nominations by committee, but people cried that it was a popularity contest. Now it's done automatically by points, which couldn't be less biased if it tried, and people still don't like it, so...?
There are those who say "let's just get rid of the Simmys" but I think a lot of us like year-end awards. I personally enjoy the challenge of racing a maybe-not-quite-SC-quality horse on a specific circuit all year in the hopes of getting an award. It's fun. Wouldn't want to see them go away.
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Kaine Saracen
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Re: Simmy awards

Post by Kaine Saracen »

Laura Smith wrote: 4 years ago For those who want the Simmy process overhauled, I ask how exactly?
The human Simmys, sure. Those are weird.
But horse-wise? We used to do nominations by committee, but people cried that it was a popularity contest. Now it's done automatically by points, which couldn't be less biased if it tried, and people still don't like it, so...?
There are those who say "let's just get rid of the Simmys" but I think a lot of us like year-end awards. I personally enjoy the challenge of racing a maybe-not-quite-SC-quality horse on a specific circuit all year in the hopes of getting an award. It's fun. Wouldn't want to see them go away.

not less biased if it tried? Points used to select the Simmy nominees are the same points used from races. Some races are worth 200 points while compatible purse/grade races in other divisions are worth less than that. Two year old simmy's will automatically favour sprinters over milers and routers due to the fact that they start months earlier. In most cases, a horse can ship in from whoop whop, win an SC and automatically get nominated above a horse that has won multiple times in that region.
As for "was a popularity contest", it still is when it comes to voting.
So ya... It definitely needs an overhaul. In an ideal situation, there would be a points system that doesn't favour any division/age group and wouldn't need voting at the end of the year.

Do I have a better solution at this moment, not at this time, because I am not inclined to waste hours on getting a solution that would be ignored anyway.
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