“Purse Structure Needs a Change” Article

[Dylan Christensen]

Here’s the link if you haven’t read it:https://www.simhorseracing.com/featurer ... leID=16745 I’m curious what people’s thoughts are on this. I have a hard time disagreeing with a lot of the points made. The stakes races are based off of real life on this game so why aren’t the other races based off of real life? I feel like it may come down to the fact that there aren’t as many horses in the SIM as in real life(maybe, I’m not sure?)and so those horses that would win those higher purse allowance and NWs races are stakes competitors(ex.https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.php?HorseID=942874). But I can’t say I’m a huge fan of that if that is why it’s structured that way. I’m curious to see what other people thought of the article and maybe why the game makers did it this way.

[Lucas Davenport]

Not going to get into a long detailed response, but I think the RL cost structure has more to do with the RL purses than anything else. Many of the horses racing at Saratoga have been purchased at auctions (or are home breds of the biggest operations); I'm guessing that if you took the average of all the maiden special weights run at Saratoge over a whole season that their purchase prices run over 100K on average. So a 90K purse recovers a bit less than half that. Only the best will go on to win three races and make a RL profit. And Pletcher and Brown and Baffert aren't running $35/day costs either.

So yes I see the point of the article, but its really apples and oranges that are being compared. Horses running at Finger Lakes that cost maybe 40K each run for 20K+ Maiden specials there. And the majority if they ran at Saratoga they would finish out of the money.

This is a game, and it approximates some of the aspects of RL racing. But you could go thru and pick out all sorts of non-comparisons like that in the article if you wanted. To repeat, this is a game.

[Dylan Christensen]

And Pletcher and Brown and Baffert aren't running $35/day costs either.

That makes a lot of sense and isn't something that has crossed my mind. But, if this were the reasoning than why would the stakes purses be structured after real life. I mean those stakes horses have very high training costs unlike in the SIM. You almost need all purses to be lower including stakes here. It seems like there's a huge imbalance in that regard.

[Keith Maidlow]

I know it is difficult to move financially forward when one has a small barn with only a few above average horses. Competing in maiden special and allowance type races with purses in the $15-20K range won't buy you the next big horse even if a player can win at a 50% rate (20-25% is probably the norm). But even if the purse structure for those type races mirrored the actual structure of real race tracks, the average horse would never be able to compete for that $90K MS Saratoga race. I had two very nice stakes horses compete as first time starters in MS $15K races. Both won and collected $7.5K. If there was a $90K race for them, I would have been there instead and probably would have run against the top tier 2 year old dirt router in the game. If anything, more accurate/bigger purses would probably only help the larger stables. At least one can find a nice allowance race that smaller stables can compete against in every venue in the world.

We also have to take into consideration that the Steward/game has to set conditions for about 3000 races a week, 48000 a SIM year at about 200 tracks all over the world (Phew!). Stakes races are a bit easier since there are just under 6000 of those.

I see what Lance is talking about for realism, but I don't know if would help smaller barns make more money because there would be tougher fields and potentially less wins in those races. Also there are things in the SIM that make life easier but less realistic, like jockeys who ride at different tracks at the same time or shipping without quarantine from continent to continent, etc, etc. I appreciate the time and thought that went into the article, but an overhaul doesn't seem to be required.

[Lance Macisaac]

I'm glad to see my article has drawn some attention.

I think part of my point was missed though. The reason why purse structure needs to change is because the majority of purses are too low. Raising them to their real-life levels is more rewarding and fair to the smaller players such as myself. When purses are so low, the best way to make money is volume - entering a slew of horses every day. If you can't do that, you can't make very much money.

My point about creating more of a disparity between the tracks as exists in real life is intended to incentivize. If you've got a freak, race it in the $90k MSW at Toga. If you have an 'allowance' horse, try it at the $23k one at Hastings and from there determine if it needs to drop to the MCL. Separating the tracks like this creates more of an opportunity to find a good spot for your horse. And Lucas touched upon this. The Stewardbreds bought for millions of dollars should be racing at Saratoga for $90-100k just like in real life. The junior players shouldn't have to race against those freaks unless the owners want to sacrifice a bunch of purse money just to get them a win.

I agree that this is a game and it should be treated as such. However, as stated, this aspect of the game is deterrent to new and smaller players in my opinion. I believe that raising the purses to amounts comparable to those of real life would benefit the game and its players. It's not realism for realism's sake, it's realism for fun's sake.

[Lance Macisaac]

I know it is difficult to move financially forward when one has a small barn with only a few above average horses. Competing in maiden special and allowance type races with purses in the $15-20K range won't buy you the next big horse even if a player can win at a 50% rate (20-25% is probably the norm). But even if the purse structure for those type races mirrored the actual structure of real race tracks, the average horse would never be able to compete for that $90K MS Saratoga race. I had two very nice stakes horses compete as first time starters in MS $15K races. Both won and collected $7.5K. If there was a $90K race for them, I would have been there instead and probably would have run against the top tier 2 year old dirt router in the game. If anything, more accurate/bigger purses would probably only help the larger stables. At least one can find a nice allowance race that smaller stables can compete against in every venue in the world.

And that's my point. I don't necessarily want to run for $90k unless I have a really good horse. But I certainly don't want to run against the horses that should be racing at that level while I'm trying to win $6,000.

Edit: what I mean is that there should be varying levels - $15k, $25k, $45k, $90k, etc. I don't mean that every maiden race should be $90k.

[Glenn Escobar]

There are Maiden races in the SIM with purses well north of 15K. And raising the purses would help bigger barns more. Plus, the long-time desire (from my understanding) has been to take cash out of the SIM, not create more of it.

The article is thought out reasonably, but raising purses will likely not benefit the same players who might wish they were higher.

[Dylan Christensen]

There are Maiden races in the SIM with purses well north of 15K. And raising the purses would help bigger barns more. Plus, the long-time desire (from my understanding) has been to take cash out of the SIM, not create more of it.

The article is thought out reasonably, but raising purses will likely not benefit the same players who might wish they were higher.

The more I think about it the more I think stakes purses shouldn't be as high as they reflect real life much closer than other races but, it is probably to late to change that

[The Steward]

There are Maiden races in the SIM with purses well north of 15K. And raising the purses would help bigger barns more. Plus, the long-time desire (from my understanding) has been to take cash out of the SIM, not create more of it.

The article is thought out reasonably, but raising purses will likely not benefit the same players who might wish they were higher.

The more I think about it the more I think stakes purses shouldn't be as high as they reflect real life much closer than other races but, it is probably to late to change that

If you check out the Y54 stakes schedule, you'll see I've spent the last few weeks going through and absolutely slashing the heck out of them. I still have 3 ish regions to go. It's a big task!

[Glenn Escobar]

There are Maiden races in the SIM with purses well north of 15K. And raising the purses would help bigger barns more. Plus, the long-time desire (from my understanding) has been to take cash out of the SIM, not create more of it.

The article is thought out reasonably, but raising purses will likely not benefit the same players who might wish they were higher.

The more I think about it the more I think stakes purses shouldn't be as high as they reflect real life much closer than other races but, it is probably to late to change that

If you check out the Y54 stakes schedule, you'll see I've spent the last few weeks going through and absolutely slashing the heck out of them. I still have 3 ish regions to go. It's a big task!

Slashing the ## of races you mean? I found a couple of regions that have a pretty clear reduction in Y54 as opposed to 53. I am sure that is a big task, too.............

[Dylan Christensen]

There are Maiden races in the SIM with purses well north of 15K. And raising the purses would help bigger barns more. Plus, the long-time desire (from my understanding) has been to take cash out of the SIM, not create more of it.

The article is thought out reasonably, but raising purses will likely not benefit the same players who might wish they were higher.

The more I think about it the more I think stakes purses shouldn't be as high as they reflect real life much closer than other races but, it is probably to late to change that

If you check out the Y54 stakes schedule, you'll see I've spent the last few weeks going through and absolutely slashing the heck out of them. I still have 3 ish regions to go. It's a big task!

Well there's the answer to this all haha, does it affect all stakes races or just some?

[The Steward]

The more I think about it the more I think stakes purses shouldn't be as high as they reflect real life much closer than other races but, it is probably to late to change that

If you check out the Y54 stakes schedule, you'll see I've spent the last few weeks going through and absolutely slashing the heck out of them. I still have 3 ish regions to go. It's a big task!

Slashing the ## of races you mean? I found a couple of regions that have a pretty clear reduction in Y54 as opposed to 53. I am sure that is a big task, too.............

No just the purses. But keep in mind all sponsored races/sponsored tracks haven't been duplicated for next year yet, so that could make it up!

[Nena Olson]

No matter what the purse structure is, you have to also remember that the goal is to win a race. There are a LOT of horses trying to break their maiden and when Danny Derby/Laura Ferguson/Susie Rydall/etc. are in a maiden special weight, I check their horse. If it has its typical 56.7-57 flat dirt works, the chances of me facing them with my own freak is very slim. I will go run it in a lesser purse just to avoid them to get a win. Same with stakes races. While it would be ideal if all freaks were able to enter the same race, the goal is to NOT face one of the big monsters and ruin your horse's confidence. So off we go to a listed/G3 race where maybe a stakes galloper or even an allowance galloper would like to win. Its really all about placement. I rarely enter a stakes galloper in a stakes race because, well, mine aren't very fast but with good race spotting, I got a G1 win with a stakes galloper recently which felt like a miracle.

Long Story Short - There are a lot of freaks and not all freaks are freaky freaks so you try to avoid the freaky freaks so you, too, can make money by entering the races that many see as races fit for allowance/stakes gallopers instead.

[Glenn Escobar]

If you check out the Y54 stakes schedule, you'll see I've spent the last few weeks going through and absolutely slashing the heck out of them. I still have 3 ish regions to go. It's a big task!

Slashing the ## of races you mean? I found a couple of regions that have a pretty clear reduction in Y54 as opposed to 53. I am sure that is a big task, too.............

No just the purses. But keep in mind all sponsored races/sponsored tracks haven't been duplicated for next year yet, so that could make it up!

That probably is about the difference in size year over year. Purse slashing is fine as well, I know that is a tough task to keep them somewhat in balance.

Just out of curiosity and because it came up in another conversation several months ago..........do you know what the grand total of all SIM purses is for a year, approximately?

[Lance Macisaac]

No matter what the purse structure is, you have to also remember that the goal is to win a race. There are a LOT of horses trying to break their maiden and when Danny Derby/Laura Ferguson/Susie Rydall/etc. are in a maiden special weight, I check their horse. If it has its typical 56.7-57 flat dirt works, the chances of me facing them with my own freak is very slim. I will go run it in a lesser purse just to avoid them to get a win. Same with stakes races. While it would be ideal if all freaks were able to enter the same race, the goal is to NOT face one of the big monsters and ruin your horse's confidence. So off we go to a listed/G3 race where maybe a stakes galloper or even an allowance galloper would like to win. Its really all about placement. I rarely enter a stakes galloper in a stakes race because, well, mine aren't very fast but with good race spotting, I got a G1 win with a stakes galloper recently which felt like a miracle.

Long Story Short - There are a lot of freaks and not all freaks are freaky freaks so you try to avoid the freaky freaks so you, too, can make money by entering the races that many see as races fit for allowance/stakes gallopers instead.

I somewhat agree, but also somewhat disagree. Winning races is a goal, yes, but so is making money. The game is cyclical. You buy horses to make money to buy horses to make money and so on. Winning is a goal too, but you almost always need to make money to do that. You know you often can't beat the freaks churned out by the players you listed, but I also know that I probably can't beat your horse either (in general, of course there will be exceptions). So when you bring your horse to the bottom purse level, I know I - or most smaller players for whom I am speaking - can't win. This is why greater purse variance is needed. If the freaks are in the 90k, like you said, you might bring yours to the 45k. I might run my stakes galloper in the 25k. The difference of I think 15k from top to bottom (15k-30k?) in maidens isn't enough incentive, but the difference of let's say 85k is.