Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

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Kelly Haggerty
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by Kelly Haggerty »

Shannon Hunt wrote: 3 years ago
Carole Hanson wrote: 3 years ago Taxes don’t just make money disappear into thin air, they go towards funding something else. But what is there to fund in a fake horse game? Unless taxes are used to ‘spread the wealth’ but I don’t like that idea, that’s not taking money out of the game, rather just circulating it (which would be fine, but money is still being added to the game through purses).
Alexandra Jaysman's hay bills, obviously. Someone has to care for our cast-offs. And whoever is mucking out the stalls, because I'm sure not doing it.

On a more serious note, I've played other sims with a tax system, the tax wasn't fun but the inflation issue prior to the tax system being put in place was near game-breaking. I say that not as a poor noob but as someone who was one of the richest players in the game.

The question is which part are people opposed to: removing money in the form of fees that don't necessarily benefit anybody, or calling it a tax?

Daily fees don't benefit anyone but remove money. Would expanding on that concept be something people find acceptable, in the form of higher fees, jockey purse commissions, vet fee at foaling, entry fees in all race categories, fines for starting forum drama? (Sorry, lost track of the serious note for a minute). Or should ideas focus on paid benefits to keep people happy, in the first class shipping model? Board at an expensive track makes faster fitness gains due to track proximity vs galloping around for cheap at home? Call our freebie improve comments a beta test and paywall them behind a trainer fee the way rest is paywalled behind a vet fee? Hacklu's Special Very Legal Injections to reduce chances of injury on a tight schedule?

Man idk anything
I honestly think it is the "T" word. But as for lowering purses, raising fees, etc. I can say that as a new(ish) player or a player that may have less time to contribute to the game it is hard enough to avoid going bankrupt. I hate the idea of lowering purses-even for the G1, because they should be big prizes and it's not like a poor player can't have one good horse. And fee concepts that other players can't afford just widen the gap.

Part of me still wonders if we are discussing a solution in need of a problem. We picked on April Eddy earlier in the thread, so I'll ask what harm her bank balance is doing to me? She can outbid me on anything and can afford really expensive leases and high stud fees, but thus far that hasn't felt like much of a handicap for me starting out. And while I personally wish that Stew-breds were sticking around, what difference does it make to me whether she has $10m in SIM or a $10m horse? From my perspective as a "poor" player that hasn't taken money out of the game- it just changed its form into something that could impact me (by beating one of my horses). FCS that allows her to drop a G1 winner in a race right at closing time and still have it be in top condition "takes money out" of both the game and my pockets.

Money sitting in her account doing nothing is meaningless to my experience. People could sit on $10b all day and- as far as game operations are concerned- it is no different than if they sit on $1m.
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Mara Jade Vess
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by Mara Jade Vess »

Jack Christensen wrote: 3 years ago
Mara Jade Vess wrote: 3 years ago re: taxes

here is some light reading in which The Admin says taxing a player's bankroll does not make sense [source]
from the beginning: viewtopic.php?p=405716#p405716
I wrote about an income tax that would slow the invented money being added on to the game. I think it could make SIM dollars worth a bit more too. The Admin mentions purses being the SIM's source of invented money. I'm not arguing taxes are perfect, but I don't think they are bad.
do not mistake me posting a link to a thread about a topic that's been hotly contested before as me actually caring
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

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Rebecca Rose Hepburn
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by Rebecca Rose Hepburn »

Tammy Stawicki wrote: 3 years ago Like random injuries we could have random $1 million disappears from your bankroll
I only support this if it comes in the form of a message in your inbox from a Nigerian prince in need of your assistance
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Andrew Chillin
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by Andrew Chillin »

Rebecca Rose Hepburn wrote: 3 years ago
Tammy Stawicki wrote: 3 years ago Like random injuries we could have random $1 million disappears from your bankroll
I only support this if it comes in the form of a message in your inbox from a Nigerian prince in need of your assistance
Yes hello. My name is prince ogemadede
;p
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Rochelle Bos
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by Rochelle Bos »

Rebecca Rose Hepburn wrote: 3 years ago
Tammy Stawicki wrote: 3 years ago Like random injuries we could have random $1 million disappears from your bankroll
I only support this if it comes in the form of a message in your inbox from a Nigerian prince in need of your assistance
I’ve had the name Nigerian Prince reserved since Y51, I’ve been waiting for a super freak destined to take all the money 🤣🤣🤣
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Andrew Chillin
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by Andrew Chillin »

Rochelle Zahacy wrote: 3 years ago [quote="Rebecca Rose Hepburn" post_id=429665 time=<a href="tel:1607551282">1607551282</a> user_id=110]
[quote="Tammy Stawicki" post_id=429641 time=<a href="tel:1607517482">1607517482</a> user_id=6993]
Like random injuries we could have random $1 million disappears from your bankroll
I only support this if it comes in the form of a message in your inbox from a Nigerian prince in need of your assistance
[/quote]

I’ve had the name Nigerian Prince reserved since Y51, I’ve been waiting for a super freak destined to take all the money 🤣🤣🤣
[/quote]

You mean hoarding
;p
Gwen Morse
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by Gwen Morse »

Kelly L Haggerty wrote: 3 years ago
I honestly think it is the "T" word. But as for lowering purses, raising fees, etc. I can say that as a new(ish) player or a player that may have less time to contribute to the game it is hard enough to avoid going bankrupt. I hate the idea of lowering purses-even for the G1, because they should be big prizes and it's not like a poor player can't have one good horse. And fee concepts that other players can't afford just widen the gap.

Part of me still wonders if we are discussing a solution in need of a problem. We picked on April Eddy earlier in the thread, so I'll ask what harm her bank balance is doing to me? She can outbid me on anything and can afford really expensive leases and high stud fees, but thus far that hasn't felt like much of a handicap for me starting out. And while I personally wish that Stew-breds were sticking around, what difference does it make to me whether she has $10m in SIM or a $10m horse? From my perspective as a "poor" player that hasn't taken money out of the game- it just changed its form into something that could impact me (by beating one of my horses). FCS that allows her to drop a G1 winner in a race right at closing time and still have it be in top condition "takes money out" of both the game and my pockets.

Money sitting in her account doing nothing is meaningless to my experience. People could sit on $10b all day and- as far as game operations are concerned- it is no different than if they sit on $1m.
First and foremost this is a game and the functioning of the economy is a matter of game design - not either real life "realism" or "fun". A game simulation is basically a lot of math. You can't measure objective realism or fun with numbers. Both realism and fun are subjective. Numbers are objective (not subjective) and that makes them easier to work with. To figure out of the economy is working you just look at the numbers. If you put $10b in the game each season and take out $1b, you know $9b is getting away. Then you look at a few things that can be simplified down to the the number of players and some averaged costs, and you can figure out how much money "should" be floating around in the economy each season. If that turns out to be $6b, then you know $4b has to come out. The numbers are easy peasy :D.

The subjective nightmare part is getting players to agree with the process, which so hard as to maybe be impossible.

As far as bank balances of successful players, it's not a problem for anyone to have $10b in the bank (unless the game isn't coded up to count that high ;)). The problem is when a lot of people have that kind of money and it starts getting passed back and forth. It drives up the costs of things and eventually new players can't afford to play. The game will collapse if the only way for new players to get established is to rely on handouts from successful players and that would happen if inflation was out of control.

The reason you (Kelly) haven't seen this yet is that the Steward is still doing a pretty good job of taking extra money out of the economy. She's adding new pay features and Stewardbreds aren't gone yet, and purse money has been shifting around (maiden purses increasing and stakes purses decreasing).

At some point in a game if there's too much money the economy collapses, just like in the real world. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't/won't happen. Race earnings end up in the hands of a relatively small number of people and they don't actually have a way to spend all their money in the core game. There are added features that take sim money out of the game (both sim cash features like First Class shipping and Game Point features like getting equipment from trainers) but in order to encourage people to spend their money on these features they have to get at least a tiny advantage in racing.

The more advantages (no matter how tiny), the more random the game (especially the slider that sets race/breeding numbers on horses) needs to be to give everyone a reasonable chance at building their stable and staying in the game. This means that instead of a simple fix (like directly taxing the surplus money out of the sim), the Steward (and Admin) have to design/code increasingly complex systems into the game to basically trick the players into taxing themselves. Those systems don't always work the way they were intended to work (I don't think First Class Shipping was designed with the intention of taking the skill out of racing horses in certain regions), even when they're successful at taking sim cash out of the game. Also, using paid features means players who can't necessarily "afford" the features are under pressure to also use them since without them they're disadvantaged.

Voluntary-use features are still a "tax", with all the problems inherent in a flat taxes and reverse progressive taxes on all players. It "costs" poor/less successful players more of what would otherwise be their discretionary income than a wealthy player. They either pay directly by also buying the features or they pay indirectly in lost earnings to players who did pay. EVERYONE still "pays" when pay features affect the results of races, regardless whether or not they use the feature for themselves.

Now, with all that explained, it doesn't automatically make it "easy" to tax the few ultra-successful players. The game is also a community of people and there are a mix of players who would be affected by a direct tax on just their earnings. Some wouldn't care either way but other people would be really upset/angry by it. Does the Steward risk alienating a few people who are long term players (and maybe personal friends) for a much larger number of silent players struggling in the lower ranks? What unintended consequences would come from it (lost mentors, lost Racing News articles and discussions on the forums to share knowledge with everyone, lost skilled breeding being distributed throughout the community in discounted auctions/sales/claiming racers). From the objective/numbers side, there are very easy fixes. From the subjective/community side, it's a mess.
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Kelly Haggerty
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by Kelly Haggerty »

In RL I have two masters degrees, one of which is in macroeconomics with a focus on tax policy. I agree with much of what Gwen is saying. There are Pigoouvian taxes that could work in the SIM, be fairly easy to code, and be progressive. But who wants to be responsible for designing the tax? Talk about taking a hit with the community!

Right now a serious new player gets income redistribution without a formal tax structure via the generosity of the community. But as Gwen says, this is risky. And it's uneven, although the results of any tax scheme wouldn't be perfect, either. And I agree that money doesn't have enough value in the SIM, which among other things produces the "missing tail" problem I discussed here https://www.simhorseracing.com/featurer ... leID=17259.

Ultimately games like this fail when people can't keep the big picture in mind and maintain an understanding that winning too much isn't a good thing. That there are reasons that they WANT to redistribute to keep the entire game healthy. Right now there seem to be many players that have this understanding, but I have already seen other games fail when 1-2 selfish players joined and felt they needed to conquer the world. This isn't a game where we race bots, we race each other. If the culture of the game shifts in that direction, it could take a very heavy tax to mitigate and still may not be enough.
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The Harlequins
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by The Harlequins »

Only my view as a newer player .

Horses are what seem to matter , winning what is classed as a top end race is the buzz not the prize fund.

The horse insurance seems wrong to me.

Renewal per horse evey season could be a way forward in my humble view .
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by The Steward »

The Harlequins wrote: 3 years ago Renewal per horse evey season could be a way forward in my humble view .
Actually really interested in this idea.
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by The Steward »

Gwen Morse wrote: 3 years ago
Kelly L Haggerty wrote: 3 years ago
I honestly think .... it's a mess.
Exceptional post about the struggles we are facing. Steward-breds weren't a good answer, according to a few. But we have to come up with "something" or economy will go into disarray (worse than now). Do we tackle it by coding differences into breeding, or do we tackle it with some brilliant new idea to take money out that no one seems to have? No answer will make everyone happy, but maybe we can make MOST happy, somehow.
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The Harlequins
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by The Harlequins »

I WAS thinking of insuring a horse called State Forty NIne or this onewww.simhorseracing.com/horse.php?HorseID=1246731. lol lol
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by LA Pepper »

Maybe we should have 5-10 stewardbreds offered every year and let the big money players battle it out. There could be a 15 million minimum. 5-10 horses will not skew the winners too much especially if spread out amongst the divisions and sexes. I would hope that homebreds could still compete as they are now. Again no guarantee of getting a freak, but still a high quality horse. Getting in on a partnership could give a poorer player a chance just as in real life.
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Tim Matthews
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Re: Steward Breds Leaving, why is this happening again?

Post by Tim Matthews »

No matter what the "solution" ends up being, if it's not an automatic fee of some kind, it won't be sufficient. You can come up with all the fun and inventive ideas for taking chunks of money out at a time as you want, and that's great! You should do that. But it won't be enough in the long run.

Steward breds are effective at removing money from the game because players throw millions into the ether for a stakes galloper that will usually do nothing on the track or in the shed. Any money recouped from that horse comes from purses, which were always going into the game in the first place. This is a very important point: money comes INTO the game through purses (mostly). And with TBS auctions, money LEAVES the game. If you take out TBS auctions, the same (or roughly same) amount of purse money still comes in, but TBS money doesn't come out. Simple, yet difficult for some to grasp.

For the record, I think Steward-breds should stay in the game in at least a limited capacity. They are a good way to get new bloodlines to different players, including newer players, and TBS acutions are very good at removing money (and small auctions remove more money per horse). And still, no one has presented a very good reason for them to leave, unless The Steward is just deeply opposed to breeding, which I'm not aware is the case.

If inflation is going to be a problem when TBS auctions leave, which it probably will, then just take some extra money out of the game. You can do this in a number of ways, but optional ways are always going to be insufficient. Whether you're talking about a tythe or talking about increased day rates, horse fees, etc., you're talking about the same thing. These are non-optional money removers, and they are the most effective way to regulate inflation.

A tiered wealth tythe is the most popular and effective way to take money out of the game. However, some people think a tythe is not the way to go. Sadly, these people have never come up with a good argument against it (although they have tried very, very hard - bless their hearts).

These people typically cite The Admin's post here. Unfortunately, his only argument is that it doesn't make sense to not tythe someone with only $10k in the bank. But that person doesn't have any money, so what's the point of tything them? The goal is to remove money from the game. And if tything them would resolve the problem that The Admin has, then go ahead - I'm sure 5% or whatever out of their account won't matter much to them anyway. Therefore, the objection has no basis.

And if a player with $25 million loudly complains about some of that cash coming out of their account at the end of the year, we should all offer our finest Carole Hanson impressions as we play a song for them on our microscopic, proton-level violins.

Or, we should bite the bullet and keep TBS horses around. Ideally, we should do both a tythe and keep TBS auctions, since that will ensure that inflation is never a game-breaking issue.

Please, I beg of you, anyone, come up with a good argument against the tythe. "It makes me mad" is not a good argument. Unfortunately for my opponents, I am allergic to missing - I swish long distance 3s only. Godspeed!
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