simperior edge

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Shannon Hunt
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Shannon Hunt » 3 months ago

I do want to add that bullying can come in different forms. It can come in ill-advised "jokes" or straight-up malicious comments, but it can also come in the form of ghosting/cold-shouldering. Nobody is obligated to talk to somebody they don't want to talk to, don't get me wrong. I don't visit the chat much because there's rarely been anybody in there when I look, it's a time zone thing (also because I was extremely shy as a newbie and it took a long time to even dare visit the chat). However, I have in my early days had multiple chat experiences where veteran players were talking away and completely ignored you (the new person) unless you asked a direct, specific question. Attempts to contribute to the conversation were glossed over and ignored. I have seen this happen to others as well while scrolling back in conversations when I've hopped on in hopes of someone being around. I have vivid memories of the people who did respond and act like it was fun to see me in chat, because it was such a stark contrast to those who did not. This happens in PMs as well - many players will answer a message, politely and pleasantly, and I've had some lovely interactions. But I've also had some not respond at all, not even just to tell me "no" (which I've always made clear I'm very open to as a response in messages). It made me feel like I was a nuisance, of no interest if I wasn't already part of the club.

I hear talk about this being a very benevolent and helpful community, especially to newbies, and I have seen this in some ways and especially if someone manages to hit the right people online in chat. But I've also seen the opposite. Hit and miss.

Nobody is obligated to talk to someone else. But a small response can make a huge difference to a shy newbie finally dipping their toes into the social interactions of the game. Just a little food for thought.

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Kelly L Haggerty
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Kelly L Haggerty » 3 months ago

Shannon Hunt wrote:
3 months ago
I do want to add that bullying can come in different forms. It can come in ill-advised "jokes" or straight-up malicious comments, but it can also come in the form of ghosting/cold-shouldering. Nobody is obligated to talk to somebody they don't want to talk to, don't get me wrong. I don't visit the chat much because there's rarely been anybody in there when I look, it's a time zone thing (also because I was extremely shy as a newbie and it took a long time to even dare visit the chat). However, I have in my early days had multiple chat experiences where veteran players were talking away and completely ignored you (the new person) unless you asked a direct, specific question. Attempts to contribute to the conversation were glossed over and ignored. I have seen this happen to others as well while scrolling back in conversations when I've hopped on in hopes of someone being around. I have vivid memories of the people who did respond and act like it was fun to see me in chat, because it was such a stark contrast to those who did not. This happens in PMs as well - many players will answer a message, politely and pleasantly, and I've had some lovely interactions. But I've also had some not respond at all, not even just to tell me "no" (which I've always made clear I'm very open to as a response in messages). It made me feel like I was a nuisance, of no interest if I wasn't already part of the club.

I hear talk about this being a very benevolent and helpful community, especially to newbies, and I have seen this in some ways and especially if someone manages to hit the right people online in chat. But I've also seen the opposite. Hit and miss.

Nobody is obligated to talk to someone else. But a small response can make a huge difference to a shy newbie finally dipping their toes into the social interactions of the game. Just a little food for thought.
Yes, chat isn't much fun for a newbie for this reason. It's kind of the tone. I was really lucky to just happen in there one time early on, hit the right moment with the right player, and wind up with a great coach and a lot of support.

But one thing I will say about your post Shannon is that it suggests that the players here want new players to join the game, to feel comfortable, and to have a good experience and stick around. The nice ones do, but there is a group here that does not and has said so. So not all of the behavior is pointless, I think some really do want to chase off newbies.

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Karl Smythe
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Karl Smythe » 3 months ago

The Steward wrote:
3 months ago
Art Kage wrote:
3 months ago
Was the "ask the experts" section intentionally anonymous?
Yes
Danny Derby wrote:
3 months ago
Okay we're all missing the bigger issue here which is that Edge content is being discussed publicly when it's intended for Simperior members only.
I have a feeling Em would have stopped the thread if that was a worry.
Sounds like she wants people to know about it so it stops.
Is the glass half full? or half empty?

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Dylan Christensen
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Dylan Christensen » 3 months ago

Kelly L Haggerty wrote:
3 months ago
Shannon Hunt wrote:
3 months ago
I do want to add that bullying can come in different forms. It can come in ill-advised "jokes" or straight-up malicious comments, but it can also come in the form of ghosting/cold-shouldering. Nobody is obligated to talk to somebody they don't want to talk to, don't get me wrong. I don't visit the chat much because there's rarely been anybody in there when I look, it's a time zone thing (also because I was extremely shy as a newbie and it took a long time to even dare visit the chat). However, I have in my early days had multiple chat experiences where veteran players were talking away and completely ignored you (the new person) unless you asked a direct, specific question. Attempts to contribute to the conversation were glossed over and ignored. I have seen this happen to others as well while scrolling back in conversations when I've hopped on in hopes of someone being around. I have vivid memories of the people who did respond and act like it was fun to see me in chat, because it was such a stark contrast to those who did not. This happens in PMs as well - many players will answer a message, politely and pleasantly, and I've had some lovely interactions. But I've also had some not respond at all, not even just to tell me "no" (which I've always made clear I'm very open to as a response in messages). It made me feel like I was a nuisance, of no interest if I wasn't already part of the club.

I hear talk about this being a very benevolent and helpful community, especially to newbies, and I have seen this in some ways and especially if someone manages to hit the right people online in chat. But I've also seen the opposite. Hit and miss.

Nobody is obligated to talk to someone else. But a small response can make a huge difference to a shy newbie finally dipping their toes into the social interactions of the game. Just a little food for thought.

But one thing I will say about your post Shannon is that it suggests that the players here want new players to join the game, to feel comfortable, and to have a good experience and stick around. The nice ones do, but there is a group here that does not and has said so. So not all of the behavior is pointless, I think some really do want to chase off newbies.
Kelly, I know exactly what interaction you're talking about and feel the need to clarify that I was using sarcasm at the time I posted that. I in no way do not want new players here and I think that goes for really everyone. Myself and many others like to share our knowledge with new players there just has been more butting of heads lately between newbies and vets and hopefully that can change.
yeah

Jack Meyer
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Jack Meyer » 3 months ago

I have noticed SIM tends to be clique (ish), but I think their are reasons for that. A lot of players go to gatherings and have grown comfortable around one another and know these people in a more personal level which is great... friendships and marriages have blossomed from this and is a good thing....some players interact more with each other outside of SIM whether by phone, other gaming venues and so on making them more comfortable around said players as well....I can see how new players can find this intimidating when they try to interact and only see certain players respond to certain others while feeling ignored.

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Xander Zone
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Xander Zone » 3 months ago

in real life and steal all Karl's candy and it makes me feel really full and good . I am a Bully but my tummy is happy

Shannon Hunt
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Shannon Hunt » 3 months ago

Kelly L Haggerty wrote:
3 months ago
It's kind of the tone.
Tone is so difficult to communicate correctly in text. Sometimes I wonder how many conflicts on the internet are just due to one person speaking sarcastically and the other reading it seriously, or vice versa. Text speak has developed its own linguistic rules that may be hard for some people to keep up with (such as the common example where if you use a full stop at the end of a sentence in a chatroom setting, many will interpret it as negative or aggressive in tone, even though it's technically correct grammar; all caps translating to yelling, etc. One my dad does constantly is never really fully ending a sentence in his emails to me, he just... adds ellipses... and then continues the train of thought... on something else... and... it reads as slow, hesitant, borderline disinterested... though I know he definitely doesn't mean it that way...and he knows grammatical rules in formal emails... so I don't know why he turns to ellipses upon ellipses in casual emails...) Use of emotes can help clarify tone, but that also comes with its own host of unwritten social rules which can make the received impression very different from the intended one. But there is definitely a certain vibe at certain hours in the sim chat that I'm not sure the chatters are even aware of themselves.

... I was going somewhere with this but it's nearing 11 pm here, and I only slept four hours last night, so I just completely blanked out. Sorry. I'll just wrap this derailed train up with one of my personal favorite text signals: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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The Steward
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Re: simperior edge

Post by The Steward » 3 months ago

I’ve been gone all day, and I’m just catching up. I considered just locking this but I think the conversation about tone and how this looks to others is good. If Carole and Rose both feel they are being heard by each other and the community, this isn’t the worst thing. Feel free to reach me if you disagree.

I kind of like what Amy said, as someone with RSD myself random comments someone says can literally ruin my day. I deal with that a lot when people message me about comments in chat or forum, where I feel like I have to make a judgement call if something was REALLY bad or not. And how bad was it? Etc. It’s tricky because I’m reading my own spin on the tone of the conversation same as everyone else.

As for Carole’s question, I’ve tried blanket Don’t Bully It’s Not Nice before. It works for a few weeks and then humans be humaning. I’ve posted before too about extra grace during this time; I don’t know about you guys, but I’m not okay right now and the world is awful and everything is the worst. Sometimes people act differently than they would have a year ago. I try to be sensitive to all the things, while still wielding the occasional ban hammer.

That said, I’m pleased with how this Edge thing turned out. It could have been another line about “what will you do with your fast horse next?!” And that would be fine, but if this gets everyone talking together that’s pretty great.
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Brandon Schultz
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Brandon Schultz » 3 months ago

I'm disappointed that anyone feels that chat isn't fun for newbies. I was notorious for ALWAYS being in chat as a newbie. Probably to an annoying degree. I loved the chat and learned a lot from being there. People were nice to me. I got some free horses. My barn is better now because of it. I don't spend as much time there anymore because I'm busier but whenever I do pop in it's a good time. Especially if it's late-night chat and I've been drinking....

I think it's true that veteran players get frustrated when new players expect to be good immediately, but I don't think that should be conflated with not liking new players or wishing that new players didn't join. And honestly, it's a fair frustration. I think a lot of new players are looking for instant gratification or think that they deserve to win a big race for some reason or another - and for players that have played for a long time that also haven't won those races, the entitlement can be annoying. With this being said, generally, the chat is a friendly place and there are good friends to be made.

As for bullying, obviously bullying is bad. We all know that. It shouldn't happen. We as a community should all hold one another responsible. I've seen people call out other people for things that were inappropriate, both on the sim (forum or chat) and in sim adjacent chat rooms/communities/texts/in person. Sometimes the bully intended to be a jerk, but often it's just genuine disagreement or a joke that didn't land. I'd like to think that most people on here are generally good people and generally mean well. Whenever I've seen someone get called out, including on this thread, they are apologetic. I don't believe anyone means real harm and usually people either just get caught up in emotions or don't realize what they said was hurtful.

I'm glad that some people have admitted to mistakes. I have a lot of respect for those people even if I disagree with things they did or said. I think there's probably also a lot of people sitting back pointing fingers at others that should probably be doing some self-reflection on themselves and the ways in which they also perpetuate the antagonizing and bullying.

I do just want to point out one massive concern that I think has been overlooked up until this point but that I think is a huge issue. What I'm concerned about the most that I've seen multiple mentions of new players being warned to "avoid this group" or "avoid this player." What the F....

This in itself seems to be as big an issue (if not bigger) as the bullying issue. If you have been one of these people that has been spreading rumors about veteran players you need to knock it off. Seriously. Not only is that super ****** up but it's incredibly manipulative and only making the sim a worse place, not a better one. If you do that and pretend that you are somehow helping the sim, you are wrong. That is the worst possible thing that could be done. You need to let your own biases and dislikes about players go or at least keep them to yourself. Being unkind or creating rumors about players just because you might disagree with the player(s) play style, is wrong, end of story. If you are one of these people that's been "warning" new players about people you don't like, you might need to think about whether or not you are the one causing the drama. Please, help a new player understand the value of a horse, help with equipment, help let them know if there's a good new-player friendly auction, and warn them if they are doing something wrong. But don't be a manipulative POS and pretend that you are a good person.

Shannon Hunt
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Shannon Hunt » 3 months ago

Brandon Schultz wrote:
3 months ago
I'm disappointed that anyone feels that chat isn't fun for newbies. I was notorious for ALWAYS being in chat as a newbie. Probably to an annoying degree. I loved the chat and learned a lot from being there. People were nice to me. I got some free horses. My barn is better now because of it. I don't spend as much time there anymore because I'm busier but whenever I do pop in it's a good time. Especially if it's late-night chat and I've been drinking....

I think it's true that veteran players get frustrated when new players expect to be good immediately, but I don't think that should be conflated with not liking new players or wishing that new players didn't join. And honestly, it's a fair frustration. I think a lot of new players are looking for instant gratification or think that they deserve to win a big race for some reason or another - and for players that have played for a long time that also haven't won those races, the entitlement can be annoying. With this being said, generally, the chat is a friendly place and there are good friends to be made.
Brandon, when I wrote about vivid memories of certain individuals being welcoming in chat, you were one of those I had in mind. You were ALWAYS nice when I showed up and made sure I was included in the conversation. So thank you for that.

I definitely understand the frustration people can have with new players who expect immediate success, or have very low patience, or listen poorly despite being the ones asking questions. I would like to think I haven't fallen into those categories as a new player, though how I perceive myself is no guarantee that others perceive me the same way. But trying to hop into ongoing conversation topics, take interest in other people, chat socially and not just "newb trying to get help", it was a very hit-or-miss experience for me personally. Still can be.

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The Steward
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Re: simperior edge

Post by The Steward » 3 months ago

More Bla bla bla from me on this topic...

But I really do feel like the community can be and usually is one of our big selling points. We are all going through some stuff man. Obviously this is true of real life and I probably sound like a grouchy old teacher but you have no idea what is really going on. We have players that can’t use their hands to play and have special devices. We have players with all cancer, either themselves or a loved one. We have players who are too anxious to leave the house (even without Covid). We have moms who are struggling to get by. We have students finding themselves. I’m writing this from under a pile of blankets because the black dog has me big time right now. Just be kind. Just. Be. Kind. It’s not that hard. Think someone is annoying on the forum? Just skip it. The world will go on.

Yesterday I was tweeting about something near and dear to my heart and someone took the time to basically tell me I’m stupid. Like, do you feel better about your life now? What the heck you couldn’t have just kept scrolling??

Anyway. That’s off topic. Yeah, younger kids can be annoying when they join but they grow up awesome. People who don’t know much about real horses can be hard to teach people who don’t speak English can be difficult to deal with (I’m totally guilty of this). But they’re all still people.
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Rebecca Rose Hepburn
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Rebecca Rose Hepburn » 3 months ago

Brandon Schultz wrote:
3 months ago
I do just want to point out one massive concern that I think has been overlooked up until this point but that I think is a huge issue. What I'm concerned about the most that I've seen multiple mentions of new players being warned to "avoid this group" or "avoid this player." What the F....

This in itself seems to be as big an issue (if not bigger) as the bullying issue. If you have been one of these people that has been spreading rumors about veteran players you need to knock it off. Seriously. Not only is that super ****** up but it's incredibly manipulative and only making the sim a worse place, not a better one. If you do that and pretend that you are somehow helping the sim, you are wrong. That is the worst possible thing that could be done. You need to let your own biases and dislikes about players go or at least keep them to yourself. Being unkind or creating rumors about players just because you might disagree with the player(s) play style, is wrong, end of story. If you are one of these people that's been "warning" new players about people you don't like, you might need to think about whether or not you are the one causing the drama. Please, help a new player understand the value of a horse, help with equipment, help let them know if there's a good new-player friendly auction, and warn them if they are doing something wrong. But don't be a manipulative POS and pretend that you are a good person.
Hmm, very valid. I did that once, regretted it, and never did it again. I may see somebody as being shady but in then end you have to let people make up their own minds when it comes to others. I definitely won't pretend to be a good person, I am full of biases and flaws, but knowing that helps me remember that I'm not so different from the people I am wary of. I've been here a long time and seen a LOT of things but I appreciate that people grow and change over the years; I'm certainly not the same person I was when I joined. Sometimes all you can do is reflect on your previous actions and try to look at them from different angles
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Cleo Patra
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Cleo Patra » 3 months ago

Shannon Hunt wrote:
3 months ago
I do want to add that bullying can come in different forms. It can come in ill-advised "jokes" or straight-up malicious comments, but it can also come in the form of ghosting/cold-shouldering. Nobody is obligated to talk to somebody they don't want to talk to, don't get me wrong. I don't visit the chat much because there's rarely been anybody in there when I look, it's a time zone thing (also because I was extremely shy as a newbie and it took a long time to even dare visit the chat). However, I have in my early days had multiple chat experiences where veteran players were talking away and completely ignored you (the new person) unless you asked a direct, specific question. Attempts to contribute to the conversation were glossed over and ignored. I have seen this happen to others as well while scrolling back in conversations when I've hopped on in hopes of someone being around. I have vivid memories of the people who did respond and act like it was fun to see me in chat, because it was such a stark contrast to those who did not. This happens in PMs as well - many players will answer a message, politely and pleasantly, and I've had some lovely interactions. But I've also had some not respond at all, not even just to tell me "no" (which I've always made clear I'm very open to as a response in messages). It made me feel like I was a nuisance, of no interest if I wasn't already part of the club.
While it probably does happen exactly like you say in some cases, there are sometimes cases like mine too. I have post concussive disorder because I fall off horses too often. I can literally forget something immediately after I’ve read it, so it can be hard to hit on every strand of a conversation, especially when the conversation is ongoing while I’m responding. If I gloss over you or forget to respond, it’s literally nothing to do with who you are or what you’re saying and everything to do with my weirdly (non)functioning brain. I also haven’t had any time off for over a year so my time and energy levels impact heavily on my response to other players. It can take me 3-4 days to respond to PMs for example.

Anyways, my point is that sometimes behaviour that might seem like snubbing or glossing might be medical or busy life induced and isn’t intended to make anyone upset.

I tend to believe everyone is trying their best to be nice unless they are clearly saying or doing something to the opposite. And I try to create a nice game atmosphere around myself when I can through free leases and giveaways and popping into chat when I have a spare moment.

Moving away from my reply to Shannon...

I haven’t actually seen any bullying happening while I’ve been present in the chat recently, but I don’t usually read back through the transcript either so I could have missed it. There have been cases on the forum but I’ve seen them dealt with by admin.

I’d also mention to remember culture can be a thing, and is especially able to be misunderstood in text. Like I’m Australian and insulting people is how we show affection. If I have a race fall and the people who run up to help me don’t immediately start mocking me and saying I need to invest in a glue company so I have a better chance of sticking to the saddle, then I’m wondering what the heck I’ve broken. I have to actively check myself in chat etc so make sure I’m not being too Aussie because some of ya’ll take an insult as an insult (what a ridiculous notion 😝🤣).

How happy you are in the game and in life also depends on your ability and desire to work for it. Make a habit of choosing to see the good in things and you’ll be amazed how much better your headspace is. I had to learn mental resilience to survive as a jockey. Because you can have a TERRIBLE ride where you absolutely blew it and sucked at life, or a horse dropped dead or you saw another rider get hurt. You then might only have a few minutes to get yourself back into a happy winning headspace for your next ride because you owe that to the horse’s connections and are being paid for it. So I would look at those 3 situations and say to myself “well at least I know not to use that tactic again today” or “at least the vet was able to attend quickly” or “I’ll remember to message the jockey chat and we’ll arrange flowers and a gift certificate for that injured rider”. It can be hard work to make a habit of seeing the good at first but it’s well worth trying it. Especially if you do have clinical depression or anything like that because it can help stop spirals totally or reduce the depths you fall to.
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Kelly L Haggerty
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Kelly L Haggerty » 3 months ago

To me bullying is a pattern. It’s not just what people say or whether they are welcoming. And I stand by what I said earlier about some people not wanting new players. If a troll deliberately preys on and/or tries to bankrupt people that’s pretty harsh. And it isn’t an oversight, a misunderstanding, or a mistake in all probability. So that’s still a “thing”. But there are more good players than evil ones. That doesn’t mean that newer people feel like they can be part of the community or be comfortable going to chat, though.

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Cleo Patra
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Re: simperior edge

Post by Cleo Patra » 3 months ago

Kelly L Haggerty wrote:
3 months ago
To me bullying is a pattern. It’s not just what people say or whether they are welcoming. And I stand by what I said earlier about some people not wanting new players. If a troll deliberately preys on and/or tries to bankrupt people that’s pretty harsh. And it isn’t an oversight, a misunderstanding, or a mistake in all probability. So that’s still a “thing”. But there are more good players than evil ones. That doesn’t mean that newer people feel like they can be part of the community or be comfortable going to chat, though.
I’ve personally never seen this happening but I would be horrified if I did. If you see it REPORT IT immediately and in as much detail as possible via the contact form. The game admin are not all knowing and all seeing so we need to report things. And if you want to know the outcome of the investigation, request that. Things tend to just get dealt with and you might not see that something has been done when it actually has. If you ask for an outcome you might not get absolute specifics but even a “hey we took action on this and thank you for your report” will help if you’re worried.
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