Quick poll

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What seems better?

Purse cuts
23
56%
Once-yearly tithe
18
44%
 
Total votes: 41

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Tim Matthews
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Tim Matthews »

Ronnie Dee wrote: 2 years ago 2 Questions for Tim
If your tax/tithe proposal was actually enacted:
1. How many players do you think would quit?
2. How much revenue do you estimate the Sim ownership team would lose?
To both questions: Don't know. It's irrelevant to the hypothetical at hand. If you read back, you'll notice I've acknowledged that the tithe won't happen, so it's pointless to ask your questions. Maybe you can make your own poll.

However, your sidestepping the substance of my idea constitutes a huge W for me which I will be eating for dinner. You're acknowledging that there's no good counter to my idea other than "I don't like it." And it's okay not to have a good reason not to like it! That's allowed!

Personally I don't think it would be worth quitting over an unnoticeable amount of money out of my account. In fact I think that's a lot less annoying than lower stakes purses across the board. But again, maybe that's just me.
Dave Trainer wrote: 2 years ago You say purse cuts would affect the poor more than a tithe but that would depend on the parameters, Cuts only to the highest value purses wouldn't affect many of the poor players who would by definition rarely win money in them. If a tithe was a %age of all income this would affect the poorer players more than cutting high value purses.
It's not a percentage of all income. It's bankroll. And all levels of stakes races are affected by purse cuts. Lower level players also win and collect checks from these races. Read the post that I linked you in my recent message. Does it really seem to you that, based on that proposal, poor players would suffer?
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Ronnie Dee
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Ronnie Dee »

Tim Matthews wrote: 2 years ago If you read back, you'll notice I've acknowledged that the tithe won't happen
I am sorry that I missed your earlier acknowledgment. Your admission that your proposal would never be enacted was the goal of my postings.
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Tim Matthews
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Tim Matthews »

Ronnie Dee wrote: 2 years ago I am sorry that I missed your earlier acknowledgment. Your admission that your proposal would never be enacted was the goal of my postings.
Brother this was established long before this thread lol. You didn’t accomplish anything.

If anyone wants to post an actually good reason to oppose the tithe, please feel free!
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Ryan Whitehead
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Ryan Whitehead »

Every good racetrack has a casino. Lets open up a casino with slots, blackjack and poker and use our sim money. The house can take their usual cut and then everyone has a little something else to do when they get burnt out entering horses. lol
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Ronnie Dee
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Ronnie Dee »

Tim Matthews wrote: 2 years ago
Ronnie Dee wrote: 2 years ago I am sorry that I missed your earlier acknowledgment. Your admission that your proposal would never be enacted was the goal of my postings.
...You didn’t accomplish anything.
I had a goal:
Tim Matthews would acknowledge (in this thread) that his tax/tithe plan would never be implemented.

You said: "the tithe won't happen".

I had a goal and my desired outcome occurred.
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Kelly Haggerty
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Kelly Haggerty »

Ok ok...eventually the cat cannot resist the string Tim is teasing us with.

I would like to be pro-tithe; however, I will take the opposite stance on the grounds that the endowment effect would, given that we are in a closed economy, result in the shrinkake of the economy as a whole, requiring larger and larger tithes to remove the appropriate amount of money in a downward spiral. Perhaps TIm and a few others (you know who you are) would care to join me in doing some regression models until we define the actual function and graph the curves while the rest of the people actually play the SIM :lol: ? Oh wait, I want to play the SIM, too. Nevermind.

https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/docs/l ... eAgent.pdf
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Tim Matthews
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Tim Matthews »

Ronnie Dee wrote: 2 years ago I had a goal and my desired outcome occurred.
Sounds good man. Just don't take credit, because I put you down whenever you tried anything in this thread. Now stop posting unless you're going to add to the discussion!
Kelly L Haggerty wrote: 2 years ago Ok ok...eventually the cat cannot resist the string Tim is teasing us with.

I would like to be pro-tithe; however, I will take the opposite stance on the grounds that the endowment effect would, given that we are in a closed economy, result in the shrinkake of the economy as a whole, requiring larger and larger tithes to remove the appropriate amount of money in a downward spiral. Perhaps TIm and a few others (you know who you are) would care to join me in doing some regression models until we define the actual function and graph the curves while the rest of the people actually play the SIM :lol: ? Oh wait, I want to play the SIM, too. Nevermind.

https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/docs/l ... eAgent.pdf
Now THIS is an interesting addition to the conversation. Can you clarify what the endowment effect is? I have absolutely no education in this stuff lol.
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Kelly Haggerty
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Kelly Haggerty »

Tim Matthews wrote: 2 years ago
Ronnie Dee wrote: 2 years ago I had a goal and my desired outcome occurred.
Sounds good man. Just don't take credit, because I put you down whenever you tried anything in this thread. Now stop posting unless you're going to add to the discussion!
Kelly L Haggerty wrote: 2 years ago Ok ok...eventually the cat cannot resist the string Tim is teasing us with.

I would like to be pro-tithe; however, I will take the opposite stance on the grounds that the endowment effect would, given that we are in a closed economy, result in the shrinkake of the economy as a whole, requiring larger and larger tithes to remove the appropriate amount of money in a downward spiral. Perhaps TIm and a few others (you know who you are) would care to join me in doing some regression models until we define the actual function and graph the curves while the rest of the people actually play the SIM :lol: ? Oh wait, I want to play the SIM, too. Nevermind.

https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/docs/l ... eAgent.pdf
Now THIS is an interesting addition to the conversation. Can you clarify what the endowment effect is? I have absolutely no education in this stuff lol.
Reference the sad little link provided. Classic example they teach a bunch of ways in the subject nicknamed "the dismal science" aka economics.
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Ronnie Dee
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Ronnie Dee »

Tim Matthews wrote: 2 years ago
Ronnie Dee wrote: 2 years ago I had a goal and my desired outcome occurred.
Sounds good man. Just don't take credit, because I put you down whenever you tried anything in this thread. Now stop posting unless you're going to add to the discussion!
I am definitely taking credit!

By the way, your optimal move to my last posting was to not reply to my post.
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Dave Trainer
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Dave Trainer »

Taxing players bankroll is unfair. It would be a tax based on history rather than current earnings. That penalises players who save their money rather than spend it. Who is the richest player, one with a couple of million in the bank and a hundred horses capable of winning graded stakes or one with 10 - 15m in the bank but no horse capable of winning graded stakes? Perhaps they are saving to buy one special horse that will kickstart their stable by running in claimers and building their bankroll.
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Durzo Blint
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Durzo Blint »

Let's talk about the perceived problem and the numbers. Just by quickly looking at the 480 players who do not make their bankroll private, there is approximately $903M owned between these players. Let's break it down further:

Total New Players: 272 players, 16 private accounts, 256 accounts have a total of $30M with the top holder being $326K for an average of $117K and median of $100K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $115K per player

Total Junior Players: 41 players, 7 private accounts, 34 accounts have a total of $4M with the top holder being $911K for an average of $158K and a median of $69K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $100K per player

Total Intermediate Players: 78 players, 30 private accounts, 48 accounts have a total of $17M with the top holder being $3.3M for an average of $458K and a median of $134K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $221K per player

Total Advanced Players: 93 players, 55 private accounts, 38 accounts have a total of $30K with the top holder being $12M (next highest is $3.5M) for an average of $800K and a median of $213K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $302K per player

Total Veteran Players: 61 players, 33 private accounts, 28 accounts have a total of $88M with the top holder being $49M (congrats Ken!) and an average of $3.2M and a median of $570K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $801K (Ken was really bring the avg up here).

Total Expert Players: 204 players, 128 private accounts, 76 accounts have a total of $733M with the top holder being $141M (congrats Laura!) and an average of $9.8M with a median of $1.4M. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $4.3M.

Let's also take a look at the top 50 money holders. We know #1 has $141M and #2 has $139M. There are 4 people with private amounts until we get to #7 with $76M and #8 with $73M. The 14th person with the most money in the game is Ken (advanced player) with $49M. We also know that the person with the 46th most money in the game has a balance of $14M.

So what does this all mean? Of the total $903M I could see, I know that $653M (72%) of that is sitting in 14 accounts of the total 480 analyzed (3%). I know there are accounts that are not active, so even if I remove the 256 new player accounts, the 14 accounts have 75% of the money analyzed and make up 6% of the accounts.

Now, I know there are 37 private accounts in the top 50 money holders, but we have the ranges those balances are between. I know there are 4 people who have between $76M and $139M. I know there are 5 people who have between $49M and $72M. If there is too much money in the game, it's not hard to figure out where the money is.

Again, I go back to my initial point, I do not see Laura or April or Regina or Glenn increasing stud fees because they have so much money, or increasing farm rate costs, or the game increasing the basic costs of playing to take money out, so does it matter that these players have a ton of money and will buy a stewardbred for $20M if they want to? Does it matter if we bring these 14 players down from $141M to $100M? or $75M to $40M? They can still do whatever they want in the game as money is not a problem and never will be for some that have the horses to continue to bring in the money through races (newly created money) or stud fees from the other players.
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Tim Matthews
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Tim Matthews »

Ronnie Dee wrote: 2 years ago I am definitely taking credit!
Take your L with you on the way out :)
Ronnie Dee wrote: 2 years ago By the way, your optimal move to my last posting was to not reply to my post.
Nope. Bye!
Dave Trainer wrote: 2 years ago Taxing players bankroll is unfair. It would be a tax based on history rather than current earnings. That penalises players who save their money rather than spend it. Who is the richest player, one with a couple of million in the bank and a hundred horses capable of winning graded stakes or one with 10 - 15m in the bank but no horse capable of winning graded stakes? Perhaps they are saving to buy one special horse that will kickstart their stable by running in claimers and building their bankroll.
Thanks for the constructive feedback, Dave. I see your point. The main thing with my proposal is that it is concerned only with the total amount of money in the game. It’s unconcerned with style of play or anything like that. I think your example is a little extreme, but there are definitely players who have less money but better horses. However, richer players do tend to have better horses. So the tithe would tend to be “fair” in that sense, even though fairness is not the goal of it.

Further, a player with 10m would be losing only 90k in my proposal. Not exactly breaking the bank, in my opinion.
Last edited by Tim Matthews 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Tim Matthews
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Tim Matthews »

Durzo Blint wrote: 2 years ago Let's talk about the perceived problem and the numbers. Just by quickly looking at the 480 players who do not make their bankroll private, there is approximately $903M owned between these players. Let's break it down further:

Total New Players: 272 players, 16 private accounts, 256 accounts have a total of $30M with the top holder being $326K for an average of $117K and median of $100K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $115K per player

Total Junior Players: 41 players, 7 private accounts, 34 accounts have a total of $4M with the top holder being $911K for an average of $158K and a median of $69K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $100K per player

Total Intermediate Players: 78 players, 30 private accounts, 48 accounts have a total of $17M with the top holder being $3.3M for an average of $458K and a median of $134K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $221K per player

Total Advanced Players: 93 players, 55 private accounts, 38 accounts have a total of $30K with the top holder being $12M (next highest is $3.5M) for an average of $800K and a median of $213K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $302K per player

Total Veteran Players: 61 players, 33 private accounts, 28 accounts have a total of $88M with the top holder being $49M (congrats Ken!) and an average of $3.2M and a median of $570K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $801K (Ken was really bring the avg up here).

Total Expert Players: 204 players, 128 private accounts, 76 accounts have a total of $733M with the top holder being $141M (congrats Laura!) and an average of $9.8M with a median of $1.4M. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $4.3M.

Let's also take a look at the top 50 money holders. We know #1 has $141M and #2 has $139M. There are 4 people with private amounts until we get to #7 with $76M and #8 with $73M. The 14th person with the most money in the game is Ken (advanced player) with $49M. We also know that the person with the 46th most money in the game has a balance of $14M.

So what does this all mean? Of the total $903M I could see, I know that $653M (72%) of that is sitting in 14 accounts of the total 480 analyzed (3%). I know there are accounts that are not active, so even if I remove the 256 new player accounts, the 14 accounts have 75% of the money analyzed and make up 6% of the accounts.

Now, I know there are 37 private accounts in the top 50 money holders, but we have the ranges those balances are between. I know there are 4 people who have between $76M and $139M. I know there are 5 people who have between $49M and $72M. If there is too much money in the game, it's not hard to figure out where the money is.

Again, I go back to my initial point, I do not see Laura or April or Regina or Glenn increasing stud fees because they have so much money, or increasing farm rate costs, or the game increasing the basic costs of playing to take money out, so does it matter that these players have a ton of money and will buy a stewardbred for $20M if they want to? Does it matter if we bring these 14 players down from $141M to $100M? or $75M to $40M? They can still do whatever they want in the game as money is not a problem and never will be for some that have the horses to continue to bring in the money through races (newly created money) or stud fees from the other players.
This is a really impressive analysis, Durzo. I’m glad someone finally took the time to look at the actual math of the situation.

I’ll also note that those players would be losing a lot less than what you suggested ($141m to $100m, etc). It’s a very moderate proposal, and I don’t think people fully realize that!
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Sara Julin
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Sara Julin »

Durzo Blint wrote: 2 years ago Let's talk about the perceived problem and the numbers. Just by quickly looking at the 480 players who do not make their bankroll private, there is approximately $903M owned between these players. Let's break it down further:

Total New Players: 272 players, 16 private accounts, 256 accounts have a total of $30M with the top holder being $326K for an average of $117K and median of $100K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $115K per player

Total Junior Players: 41 players, 7 private accounts, 34 accounts have a total of $4M with the top holder being $911K for an average of $158K and a median of $69K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $100K per player

Total Intermediate Players: 78 players, 30 private accounts, 48 accounts have a total of $17M with the top holder being $3.3M for an average of $458K and a median of $134K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $221K per player

Total Advanced Players: 93 players, 55 private accounts, 38 accounts have a total of $30K with the top holder being $12M (next highest is $3.5M) for an average of $800K and a median of $213K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $302K per player

Total Veteran Players: 61 players, 33 private accounts, 28 accounts have a total of $88M with the top holder being $49M (congrats Ken!) and an average of $3.2M and a median of $570K. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $801K (Ken was really bring the avg up here).

Total Expert Players: 204 players, 128 private accounts, 76 accounts have a total of $733M with the top holder being $141M (congrats Laura!) and an average of $9.8M with a median of $1.4M. Removing the top 5 and bottom 5 from the average results in an avg of $4.3M.

Let's also take a look at the top 50 money holders. We know #1 has $141M and #2 has $139M. There are 4 people with private amounts until we get to #7 with $76M and #8 with $73M. The 14th person with the most money in the game is Ken (advanced player) with $49M. We also know that the person with the 46th most money in the game has a balance of $14M.

So what does this all mean? Of the total $903M I could see, I know that $653M (72%) of that is sitting in 14 accounts of the total 480 analyzed (3%). I know there are accounts that are not active, so even if I remove the 256 new player accounts, the 14 accounts have 75% of the money analyzed and make up 6% of the accounts.

Now, I know there are 37 private accounts in the top 50 money holders, but we have the ranges those balances are between. I know there are 4 people who have between $76M and $139M. I know there are 5 people who have between $49M and $72M. If there is too much money in the game, it's not hard to figure out where the money is.

Again, I go back to my initial point, I do not see Laura or April or Regina or Glenn increasing stud fees because they have so much money, or increasing farm rate costs, or the game increasing the basic costs of playing to take money out, so does it matter that these players have a ton of money and will buy a stewardbred for $20M if they want to? Does it matter if we bring these 14 players down from $141M to $100M? or $75M to $40M? They can still do whatever they want in the game as money is not a problem and never will be for some that have the horses to continue to bring in the money through races (newly created money) or stud fees from the other players.
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Dave Trainer
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Re: Quick poll

Post by Dave Trainer »

Tim Matthews wrote: 2 years ago
Dave Trainer wrote: 2 years ago Taxing players bankroll is unfair. It would be a tax based on history rather than current earnings. That penalises players who save their money rather than spend it. Who is the richest player, one with a couple of million in the bank and a hundred horses capable of winning graded stakes or one with 10 - 15m in the bank but no horse capable of winning graded stakes? Perhaps they are saving to buy one special horse that will kickstart their stable by running in claimers and building their bankroll.
Thanks for the constructive feedback, Dave. I see your point. The main thing with my proposal is that it is concerned only with the total amount of money in the game. It’s unconcerned with style of play or anything like that. I think your example is a little extreme, but there are definitely players who have less money but better horses. However, richer players do tend to have better horses. So the tithe would tend to be “fair” in that sense, even though fairness is not the goal of it.
"Fairness is not the goal of it"? That says it all about your proposal. Anything brought in needs to be fair otherwise the Sim will lose players.
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