Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

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Maria Schreuder
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Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

Post by Maria Schreuder » 1 month ago

As new player just dipping my toes in the shallows of the breeding waters, I find myself looking around pedigrees a lot and often envisioning how I can arrange a mating featuring close (2 x 3, 3 x 2, 3 x 3) inbreeding to a great running, great producing mare. Now while I've seen some nice horses bred this way, I'm wondering if there's a hidden drawback to this - obviously unless the horses you're inbreeding to is absolutely stellar, you also run the risk of solidifying their bad traits. I'd really love to hear the accomplished's players thoughts and experiences with this idea. Thank you.

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Laura Smith
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Re: Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

Post by Laura Smith » 1 month ago

Maria Schreuder wrote:
1 month ago
As new player just dipping my toes in the shallows of the breeding waters, I find myself looking around pedigrees a lot and often envisioning how I can arrange a mating featuring close (2 x 3, 3 x 2, 3 x 3) inbreeding to a great running, great producing mare. Now while I've seen some nice horses bred this way, I'm wondering if there's a hidden drawback to this - obviously unless the horses you're inbreeding to is absolutely stellar, you also run the risk of solidifying their bad traits. I'd really love to hear the accomplished's players thoughts and experiences with this idea. Thank you.
Inbreeding to great mares is generally considered a good thing, even by the Steward herself. You pretty much have it right- it better be a damn nice mare or you run the risk of amplifying any negatives. It's a good thing to try if you have a mare with a great matriarch within the first two gens.
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Maria Schreuder
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Re: Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

Post by Maria Schreuder » 1 month ago

Thank you very much Laura for taking the time to answer and sharing your thoughts.

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Erin Sanderson
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Re: Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

Post by Erin Sanderson » 1 month ago

Maria, I do this as much as humanly possible. In fact, doing so gave me my first top flight runner and sire (some of my very earliest homebred stakes winners), Gibraltar (2x3 Banner) and his stakes winning half sister, Catalan Bay. Also managed a graded stakes winner, Sing Me Back Home, from another nobody mare going 2x3 to Banner.

Another of my earliest stakes winners was 3x3 to Mirror: Shalafein. Crossing two of my best dirt routers ever gave me 3x3 to Clearly Best: Stars Will Dance. Her particular female line is still going very strong to this day.

I've even found results going 4x4, especially in regards to my foundation female family (Sway) in recent years. I believe the pedigree influence was expanded to 4 generations, but I could be remembering incorrectly. My highest earner ever is 4x4 to Sway, and his freakiest son is 5x5x4. Off the top of my head, my Islands champion City of Dust is also 4x3 to Sway.

I have not noticed any real drawbacks to doing it. As Laura said, even the Steward regards it as a good thing, mostly. You just want it to only be to the very best mares, and preferably ones that were versatile or bred to sires that balanced out their specialties. For example, the Sway female family I mentioned above is notorious for wanting to run long. To make them really useful racehorses, the lines need regular injections of speedier, or at the very least 10 furlong, type horses, otherwise they all wind up plodders.
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Tammy Stawicki
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Re: Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

Post by Tammy Stawicki » 1 month ago

Erin Sanderson wrote:
1 month ago
I've even found results going 4x4, especially in regards to my foundation female family (Sway) in recent years. I believe the pedigree influence was expanded to 4 generations, but I could be remembering incorrectly. My highest earner ever is 4x4 to Sway, and his freakiest son is 5x5x4. Off the top of my head, my Islands champion City of Dust is also 4x3 to Sway.
My understanding is inbreeding doesn't do anything beyond the 3rd generation as the sim only looks at the first 3 generations.
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Maria Schreuder
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Re: Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

Post by Maria Schreuder » 1 month ago

Thank you very much for sharing your experience and examples Erin. Also thank you for pointing that too much of a good thing - like stamina in your case - might be a problem.

Castles Crumble is absolutely stunning. I would love to think that the Sway inbreeding played a role, but even if it didn't directly it's still a great testament to her legacy.

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Re: Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

Post by Maria Schreuder » 1 month ago

[/quote]

My understanding is inbreeding doesn't do anything beyond the 3rd generation as the sim only looks at the first 3 generations.
[/quote]

To err on the side of safety (and to hopefully get the maximum benefit!) I will try to keep looking for crosses in the second and third generations.

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Nini Hunter
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Re: Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

Post by Nini Hunter » 1 month ago

Tammy Stawicki wrote:
1 month ago
Erin Sanderson wrote:
1 month ago
I've even found results going 4x4, especially in regards to my foundation female family (Sway) in recent years. I believe the pedigree influence was expanded to 4 generations, but I could be remembering incorrectly. My highest earner ever is 4x4 to Sway, and his freakiest son is 5x5x4. Off the top of my head, my Islands champion City of Dust is also 4x3 to Sway.
My understanding is inbreeding doesn't do anything beyond the 3rd generation as the sim only looks at the first 3 generations.
This is true that it is not mathematically factored in, but to my understanding a trickle down effect can still come into play since their blood is still in their offspring. Even if it is not direct, their presence is still there.
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Lily Wilkins
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Re: Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

Post by Lily Wilkins » 1 month ago

I'll still do a 3x4 (or even 4x4) linebred cross to a super mare (or super sire) if it's the best I can get. I have found that sometimes it does seem to make the offspring a little better because of that trickle-down effect that Nini Mentioned.
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Stormy Peak
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Re: Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

Post by Stormy Peak » 1 month ago

My take on inbreed foals...using the matron lines....
Two heads are always better than one ;) ..lol.

These all trace back to my foundation mare, Foremost. Her line mostly produced really awesome fillies, but upon occasion nice colts too.

Heartborken

Forgotten Ghost

Willfulness

Forbidden

Fighting Authority

Fortuitous Escape

River Styx

The ones still in training, look to me like they might be pretty good on the track...crossing my fingers.

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Maria Schreuder
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Re: Inbreeding to matrons - thoughts?

Post by Maria Schreuder » 1 month ago

Thank you Nini and Lily for that explanation, it does make a lot of sense.

Thank you Stormy for sharing your horses. I just love to see how well you've done out of that one line (gives me something to aspire), and I certainly hope the youngsters will follow in the hoofprints of Heartborken and the rest.

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