Effect of racing career on breeding potential

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Eric Gray
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Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Eric Gray » 1 month ago

Does anyone have any evidence, factual or anecdotal, about whether a win during their career improves a mares breeding ability or not. I guess what I am asking is, would horse X be a better broodmare with a win on her record as opposed to if she was a maiden?

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Ash Tarasin
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Ash Tarasin » 1 month ago

A win doesn't improve a mare's breeding potential, her ability to win does.

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Rochelle Zahacy
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Rochelle Zahacy » 1 month ago

Breeding ability and racing ability aren’t linked. Or at least that’s what we’re told!
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Carole Hanson
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Carole Hanson » 1 month ago

I will say though, I've never seen a "blue hen" rated mare that has galloped lower than "productive". Just speculation though

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Cleo Patra
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Cleo Patra » 1 month ago

Carole Hanson wrote:
1 month ago
I will say though, I've never seen a "blue hen" rated mare that has galloped lower than "productive". Just speculation though
Why Hide was a claimer blue hen. She produced a millionaire.

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Randall Allen
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Randall Allen » 1 month ago

After nicking literally thousands of horses over the years, I have had more success with mares that at minimum have a win. I think odds are that 1) the broodmare comment and 2) the mare's offspring will be much better, if said mare has a win and even better a stakes win. I believe this so much so that I race struggling allowance mares at 5,6 and 7 sometimes just trying to get them 1 win. I also believe this so much that if I see a mare at auction or for sale and she doesn't have a win, I generally won't purchase or lease.

Also, I think you are 99 percent more likely to get a nice mare from an allowance, stakes or freak gallop than you are a solid or claimer. I think Why Hide was the exception and not the rule.

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Gwayne Mike
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Gwayne Mike » 1 month ago

Often wondered while studs need to meet a minimum career earnings of $350K to be effective but broodmares have no such requirements? I'm not saying that should be their standard as well but some sort of a level of achievement. The ability to win a race might be one way of accomplishing that?
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Erin Sanderson
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Erin Sanderson » 1 month ago

As I understand it, breeding potential and racing potential are generally separate. However, you are much likely to get a mare with top level breeding potential that ALSO was a nice racehorse. This is purely my speculation from half remembered and cobbled together articles, blogs, and message board posts, but I believe that stat the bloodstock agent gives you a hint toward at least in part refers to a mare's likelihood of passing on HER abilities as well as the ability and back class that may or may not be lurking in her pedigree. That may partly explain why one can get a blue hen mare from a suspect pedigree that had only minor racing ability, and why said blue hen rarely produces anything of note. Of course, I could be entirely off base here.

When I'm looking at a mare, the first thing I check is her pedigree. I want a female family with at least some black type, or I'm already much less likely to breed her, no matter what the bloodstock agent says, and I don't want any "oddball" sires on her dam's side that weren't very good, either. Race record is a definite plus, but not an absolute requirement. The best mare I've ever owned was a productive galloper, won a maiden claimer, formidable rated and never hypoed above a flat B with anyone. Some of the absolute worst producing mares I've had have been Steward's Cup or other graded stakes winners (my theory is their racing ability came largely from a random slide and not so much the strength of their pedigree, hence the reason they didn't "breed on" in any way).

In terms of having a racing requirement for broodmares, I would be quite against that. If we had had such in years gone by, then this mare, whose son Gibraltar sired earners of over $36 million, this mare, who produced earners of over $8 million and whose family is still VERY strong in my barn, including my favorite horse ever still currently racing, and this mare, whose champion daughter Tempest kicked off a female family that is currently flourishing, would have likely never been bred. And that would leave my barn absolutely nowhere. I'm sure there are other folks with examples similar to these.
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Gwayne Mike
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Gwayne Mike » 1 month ago

Erin Sanderson wrote:
1 month ago
As I understand it, breeding potential and racing potential are generally separate. However, you are much likely to get a mare with top level breeding potential that ALSO was a nice racehorse. This is purely my speculation from half remembered and cobbled together articles, blogs, and message board posts, but I believe that stat the bloodstock agent gives you a hint toward at least in part refers to a mare's likelihood of passing on HER abilities as well as the ability and back class that may or may not be lurking in her pedigree. That may partly explain why one can get a blue hen mare from a suspect pedigree that had only minor racing ability, and why said blue hen rarely produces anything of note. Of course, I could be entirely off base here.

When I'm looking at a mare, the first thing I check is her pedigree. I want a female family with at least some black type, or I'm already much less likely to breed her, no matter what the bloodstock agent says, and I don't want any "oddball" sires on her dam's side that weren't very good, either. Race record is a definite plus, but not an absolute requirement. The best mare I've ever owned was a productive galloper, won a maiden claimer, formidable rated and never hypoed above a flat B with anyone. Some of the absolute worst producing mares I've had have been Steward's Cup or other graded stakes winners (my theory is their racing ability came largely from a random slide and not so much the strength of their pedigree, hence the reason they didn't "breed on" in any way).

In terms of having a racing requirement for broodmares, I would be quite against that. If we had had such in years gone by, then this mare, whose son Gibraltar sired earners of over $36 million, this mare, who produced earners of over $8 million and whose family is still VERY strong in my barn, including my favorite horse ever still currently racing, and this mare, whose champion daughter Tempest kicked off a female family that is currently flourishing, would have likely never been bred. And that would leave my barn absolutely nowhere. I'm sure there are other folks with examples similar to these.
Agreed, it is kind of late in the game to demand requirements of broodmares. That choice can be left to the individual rather than requiring it. And blue hens without a nice pedigree may as well be labelled unpredictable.
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Carole Hanson
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Carole Hanson » 1 month ago

Cleo Patra wrote:
1 month ago
Carole Hanson wrote:
1 month ago
I will say though, I've never seen a "blue hen" rated mare that has galloped lower than "productive". Just speculation though
Why Hide was a claimer blue hen. She produced a millionaire.

https://www.simhorseracing.com//horse.p ... eID=448915
That’s pretty cool!

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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Pepper Carol » 1 month ago

WHY HIDE never raced so how could she win???????? there are numerous examples of claimers becoming stakes or freaks and she obviously was one of those.

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Laura Smith
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Laura Smith » 1 month ago

Erin Sanderson wrote:
1 month ago
...I believe that stat the bloodstock agent gives you a hint toward at least in part refers to a mare's likelihood of passing on HER abilities as well as the ability and back class that may or may not be lurking in her pedigree. That may partly explain why one can get a blue hen mare from a suspect pedigree that had only minor racing ability, and why said blue hen rarely produces anything of note. Of course, I could be entirely off base here.
this is my working hypothesis as well -- that the broodmare comment describes a number which rates the mare's likelihood of passing on her own ability. If she has lots of ability to pass on to the next generation, she has a high chance of doing so. If she sucks, she'll have a high chance of passing on her suckiness.
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Cleo Patra
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Cleo Patra » 1 month ago

Pepper Carol wrote:
1 month ago
WHY HIDE never raced so how could she win???????? there are numerous examples of claimers becoming stakes or freaks and she obviously was one of those.
She wasn’t actually. She was part of a “find the crazy nice horse that got AJed” contest and the Steward recommendation was to immediately retire because that claimer rating was never getting better.
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Nena Olson
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Nena Olson » 1 month ago

I'd definitely take the broodmare comment rating with a grain of salt. I think there are been numerous times a no potential or better mare has turned out to be a diamond in the rough, producing superstars.
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Stormy Peak
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Re: Effect of racing career on breeding potential

Post by Stormy Peak » 1 month ago

Nena Olson wrote:
1 month ago
I'd definitely take the broodmare comment rating with a grain of salt. I think there are been numerous times a no potential or better mare has turned out to be a diamond in the rough, producing superstars.
Below are some quotes on breeding potential from 9 (real) years ago...when I checked my then pensioned foundation mare, Foremost, just for the fun of it.

Eric Nalbone had a reply to this... I'll post it too, plus a link to the whole thread if anyone is interested in opinions from that far back, when testing broodmares and hypo mating was a newish feature.

I edited the 1st quote a bit. The thread link is at the bottom if anyone wishes to go back and read opinions about how people felt about the fairly newish features of hypo mating and broodmare testing. Back then, I knew Foremost wasn't a great racing mare...but she was giving me some excellent foals....so I knew that was possible for a mare to do that. I was however, utterly shocked by how utterly 'off' the agent's comment was about Foremost.

Stormy Peak wrote:
9 years ago
......

BTW: I never asked the bloodstock agent about Foremost, because I've seen she's produced some really nice horses. But out of sheer curiosity I did so today...
WOW>>> :evil:>>>> Foremost' doesn't have any potential as a flat race broodmare; I'd be impressed if she ever produced a winner!

Foremost's best babies:
Fortuitous: $668,640
Forgave: (age 3) $523,900 (I think she could earn over a million before I retire her)
Foreward: $507,250
Foreshadows her yearling filly by Jabaar got a stakes comment.

I don't know if I'll ever trust that agent again. :evil:
----------
Stormy

Me again after reading a few other comments and in thinking about that 'no potential remark Foremost got:
Stormy Peak wrote:
9 years ago
I am pretty ticked about the agent...

If she's that far off on a mare like Foremost...I have to wonder about the thousands and thousands of dollars I've spent looking at mares in my broodmare band. I even pensioned a few that had never been bred, based off of those comments.

Foremost is my favorite mare, but I'm not blind to the fact that she's not a consistent mare either.

She's produced some duds and some goobers...but geesh...still, she's had 3 of her foals win Grade 1 races! So how she could get a comment like she did, just blows me right out of my computer chair.

It's going to be a long time before I ever use the agent again. I just get sick thinking of the money I tossed that way...and also whether or not how correct she was with the mares I pensioned based on reports. Chances are probably slim I tossed out mares who could produce a few Grade 1 winners...but still...it looks like there's a definite possibility that it could happen too.

Stormy

-------------------------------------------------------

Eric Nalbone's reply to my comment:
Eric Nalbone wrote:
9 years ago
It's statistically unlikely, but statistically unlikely things are LIKELY to happen once in a blue moon. Maybe she's NOT off on Foremost, and she actually sucks as a broodmare, and has gotten some UNREAL random slides repeatedly. I'm not saying this is definitely the case, just that if a mare can randomly get ONE good horse they can randomly get four, even if they themselves suck.

I think it's entirely possible that most of Foremost's foals are SUPPOSED to be like the failure Black Condor, and you're getting randomly lucky with obscure crosses that most people wouldn't have used (Theatrical, Kotashaan).
------------------------------------------

Link to the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24497&hilit

I'm had so many millionaires from my foundation mare, Foremost....the best being Roughian...that I'm just glad even moreso, 9 years after those posts, that the agent comments didn't exist when I first started breeding her !!!

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