Inbreeding???

[Sten Rino Haakonsen]

as I sat down to look into booking sires for my mares I was thinking i for once would try and do a little more research before settling for a sire on each mare and one thing I was thinking about was the area of inbreeding to try and breed to sire with the perfect amount of inbreeding but then it occoured to me is there such a thing ??

how much inbreeding do I want and what is too little and what is too much?

in my research which so far consists of checking 1 mare I have found most sires will make a 3*3 inbreeding meaning the same sire will appear in the third row of both breedings which would make them appear in the 4th row on both side of the foals pedigree
is this a good amount or is it to much inbreeding or too little

on one I found I would get both a 2*3 and a 3*3 meaning 2 differrent sire appeared on both sides one in the 2nd and 3rd column and the other 2 times in the 3rd colum which would mean the foal would have the first sire in 3 and 4 column and the other both in colum 3
is this a good or bad thing ?

in other worrds is there a certain type I should be looking for and in any case what would that be?

[Laura Smith]

So, a 3x3, for example, is when the same horse appears in the third row of the foal's pedigree (the foal himself doesn't count as a generation.) So your example where the same horse appears twice in the 4th column doesn't actually count as inbreeding -- the SIM only "sees" the foal's first three generations.
Here's a 3x3: https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1144451 . The 3x3 to RFTM "counts" as inbreeding but the 4x4 to Perfect Night does not.

Does it work? How much is too much? TOugh questions. A great many good horses, player-breds and Stew-breds both, are 3x3 to top stallions, so we know that works. The Steward has stated repeatedly that she is a fan of 3x3 to nice mares, full brothers, etc etc. I've tried a bunch of 2x3 and 3x3 to nice mares, and I haven't had a ton of luck, but the slide makes things hard to assess, especially with a fairly small sample size.
It's also possible that the relative quality of a "really nice" TS mare is quite low compared to what Em would consider a "really nice" DR or TR foundation mare. And when you inbreed, you're compounding all the qualities of the horse you're inbreeding to, including the negative ones. So a really nice TS might not be nice enough, and maybe that's messing me up?

That said, there are lots of examples of very successful horses who are 3x3 and even some 2x3. I mostly see this as inbreeding to stallions; would love to see some examples of successful inbreeding to mares, actually... they're definitely out there, but they're harder to track down.

[Andrew Chillin]

https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.php?HorseID=824301
2x2

https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1172317
1x3

[Sten Rino Haakonsen]

Thanks for the input and yeah I think the ones I found was 3x3 and only after ccounting the foal they were 4x4

This is more of way to renew my thinking when it comes to breeding like an experiment not even sure it will b possible for all my mares and this is not because I feel my breeding is bad at least not in the divisions I care about the most

I wanted however to be check pedigrees more and yeah I know there are more ways to find the best possible breeding than with inbreeding I am sure I just dont know what they are lol

[Sten Rino Haakonsen]

think I understood now and yeah that would make most of those I found 4x4 and would not be indbreeing so I am actually looking for the 2x2 that would then appear as 3x3 in the foals pedigree
got it thanks

[Fanta Arcadia]

https://www.simhorseracing.com//horse.p ... ID=1275719

3x2 to My Heart of Hearts and this filly galloped freak this year.

[Sten Rino Haakonsen]

that is a nice foal but not all of us have breeding lines like that Fanta haha
seems a lot easier to find with sires than dams at least in my barn

[Fanta Arcadia]

that is a nice foal but not all of us have breeding lines like that Fanta haha
seems a lot easier to find with sires than dams at least in my barn

lol true. I posted mainly in response to this line from Laura. I bred that filly as an experiment last year because before that Kickstart My Heart (a hen) had not produced above a stakes gallop. I wanted to see if inbreeding to a mare like My Heart of Hearts would be enough of a boost to get freak.

That said, there are lots of examples of very successful horses who are 3x3 and even some 2x3. I mostly see this as inbreeding to stallions; would love to see some examples of successful inbreeding to mares, actually... they're definitely out there, but they're harder to track down.

[Sten Rino Haakonsen]

but success stories like that is exactly why I wanna test this out and I might have spoken a but too soon when it came to finding 3*3 to a mare

I am thinking my inkling into that is my too full siblings Old Dan and Little Ann

daughters of little Ann bred to sons of Old Dan would make a foal who has 3*3 to both Old Majesty and Silence Is Bliss

[Ash Tarasin]

"how much inbreeding do I want and what is too little and what is too much?"

The Sim is already telling us of what is too much inbreeding since it won't allow us to go closer than half-sibling to half-sibling.

In total you have 14 horses (14 spots) at three different impact levels in a horse's 3-generation pedigree which will affect the outcome (your foal) to a different extent. The first generation has a 50% genetical relationship with your foal, the second generation 25% and the
third generation 12.5%. Thus each time you move a horse further back in the pedigree you slice it's impact on your foal in half.

What you do, when you do a 3x3 linebreeding to any horse is basically to make sure that two spots in the 14-spots pedigree looks exactly the same. If it is a 3x3 you add 12.5% to 12.5%, getting a 25% which means- theoretically - you're letting your 3x3 horse have as big of an influence on your foal as the grandsires and -dams.

Thus it's not a matter of too little or too much, but to which horse you're linebreeding to and how it connects to the rest of the pedigree.

(My apologies if I was over explicit)

[Sten Rino Haakonsen]

I think I underrstand to some degree and yes I also understand that at some point it is too closee and not allowed but there are also those I still consider too close that are allowed

anyways I have been trying to atleast have this in the bak of my head when picking out a breeding though I have only done my appaloosas so far and my broodmare band pedigrees are not that deep yet in appys

hopefully I will see more and deeper pedigrees when I somewhere around newyear that would be the real life one haha get as far as too be checking my turf milers

[Kelly Haggerty]

I linebred to a mare here https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1289250

Inbred to one here https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1328205

In RL many people are advocates for going 3x3 or 4x4 to a horse through both a son and a daughter. The idea is you are doubling up on the horse AND getting the genes on both his chromosomes.


"Linebreeding" vs. "inbreeding"- it's "linebreeding" if 4 or more gens out.

[Ash Tarasin]

I think I underrstand to some degree and yes I also understand that at some point it is too closee and not allowed but there are also those I still consider too close that are allowed

I'd think too close to the wrong horse would always be wrong, but that is true even for horses that aren't linebred. Also, the closer you're linebreeding the more important it is that you're doing it "right" since the different kinds of input you'll get from an inbred/linebred pedigree is lesser than that of a non-linebred pedigree due to the smaller number of "genuine/original" horses (horses that only appear once). (You may not want a 5f specialist in puddle-sprinting. If you had gone less tight your horse may have been able to stretch to 6f, and sometimes making an effort on a sunny day too)

For the larger picture - if everyone would be tighly linebreeding to the same horses, every horse would eventually become the same, which would lead to races settled by RNG rather than talent and quality. In that aspect - there definitely is a "too much".

What is your theory of "too close" and how do you reason and think about it?

[Ash Tarasin]

In RL many people are advocates for going 3x3 or 4x4 to a horse through both a son and a daughter. The idea is you are doubling up on the horse AND getting the genes on both his chromosomes.

In RL you have to keep in mind health aspects when you're breeding. That is the main reason for why you'd prefer not going too tight. I'm not actually sure of whether tightly linebred horses within the SIM will become unsound to a larger extent? Interesting aspect.

Another horse-game I used to play (Trophyhorse) added a negative coefficient to the racing ability of the horse when the pedigree went too linebred (probably to keep horses from ending up copies of one another). You were notified of that it would happen when you were hypomating so that you could make a choice of whether you wanted to go ahead with the breeding or not. I have not heard of such within the SIM (yet).

[Craig Mcgee]

Speaking of inbreeding would anyone try this pairing? Mare is a young BH by Blue Bayou.
Ashwinder x Blue's Queen. Foal would be 2 x 3 to Harry Potter.
Hmmm or maybe....
World of Color x Blue's Queen. Foal would be 2 x 3 to Danny's great mare Let It Go.