Total Purses in the SIM

[Dylan Christensen]

Glenn (and others) do have a valid point re: assets on "tax day."
The SIM tracks our earnings already, even neatly organized by type. What would be wrong with graduated taxation on income? Leave stuff like article writing out of it (tax free income would be a great way to encourage more writers...) but otherwise tax on yearly income, including stud fees as those tend to be the bread and butter of the richest stables.

Is it "fun?" Maybe not, but neither are random injuries and having your blue hens produce claimers, and we accept those things as part of the game. If inflation management is necessary for the success of the SIM, I'm all for it. Take my couple percent at the end of the year. I'd just blow it BSAing mares anyway

Graduated taxation on income, especially on net income, is music to my ears.

I’ll even get behind the tax free income on freelancing, that’s actually a cool idea as well.

For those players just breaking even if all of a sudden a percent of their earnings are being taken away that is going to very frustrating.

Yup. This has been what I was thinking about this Jockey tax the entire time. For people like me even, who are well past just breaking even but are still struggling to get their stable really truly going that would be very frustrating. One proposal I have to slightly alter this jockey tax is graduating it. Once a player hits $500,000 in earnings they pick up a 1% tax on race earnings and for every $100,000 more they pick up another .2%(to ensure the taxation is fairly consistent). This would make it easier for people to recover from that start of season low bank roll many of us end up in but as they get going they start to make less and less. I believe it would be entirely fair as those just barely breaking even are not making $500,000 a year. But like everything else here,I’d like to hear what others think, even as I still write this I feel the tax may need to be a bit higher.

[Tammy Stawicki]

Taxing wealth in a SIM Cash economy makes no sense. The taxes don’t go toward anything! At least in a TBS auction you get a horse or horses.

In a recurrent estate tax situation, you simply shred up fake currency for the purpose of having less of it.

It makes no sense.

But it has been clearly stated that there is a desire to have less currency in the game which is why purses were slashed. An estate tax would be an alternative way to accomplish that.

[Glenn Escobar]

Taxing wealth in a SIM Cash economy makes no sense. The taxes don’t go toward anything! At least in a TBS auction you get a horse or horses.

In a recurrent estate tax situation, you simply shred up fake currency for the purpose of having less of it.

It makes no sense.

But it has been clearly stated that there is a desire to have less currency in the game which is why purses were slashed. An estate tax would be an alternative way to accomplish that.

Can we just leave the purses slashed, continue to have TBS auctions, and call it a day?

I don’t see why that’s a less desirable solution than implementing estate taxes.

[Art K Stables]

So I guess it’s coming full circle, it seems like it’s turning out all the alternatives to lower purses are less popular, and I do also think it’s good that at least some claim and allowance purses have apparently risen, that would seem to help those who need it most without the stigma of taxing wealth, whatever works!

[Danny Derby]

Can anyone actually explain the problem they’re trying to solve in this thread, and whether or not it’s actually a problem? I’ve rarely before seen 6 pages of such completely pointless discussion.

[Glenn Escobar]

Can anyone actually explain the problem they’re trying to solve in this thread, and whether or not it’s actually a problem? I’ve rarely before seen 6 pages of such completely pointless discussion.

I asked this question the last time taxes came up, because they always seem like a “solution” in search of a problem.

[Mr. Lord Rich]

Most of this convo started based off purse cuts.

If everyone had April Eddy money, no one would be in here discussing any of this

[Mr. Lord Rich]

I know Emily started this one just to lay out some numbers, but it would be awesome to see those numbers further broken down, if possible! For instance, in Y41 (or around that time) what was TBS sale price for a TM colt? I looked up a few and it was $600k (Knock Four Times, Mickey, Night Broken). Fast forward to Y53 and what do TM colts go for in the TBS auctions? Much more (I think), yet the increases in total SIM cash in game are not very drastic year to year. So I think some context would help (for me anyway). I haven't been playing since Y41 so I don't know how the game has changed in that time frame.

Honestly the reason stewy turf milers and sprinters were so expensive this season (most avg 2-3 mill min) vs previous seasons was the way the steward decided to break the auctions up into individual smaller auctions. The turf milers were pretty early on. One of the first auctions.

It was a very smart money move on her part.
More players bidding on less horses driving prices through the roof. Combine that with stewy limits and the prices were way over the norm.

A horse is only worth what someone is willing to pay.
There was a lot of eager buyers early this season so most of the early sales were way out of the norm price wise.

[Tim Matthews]

Glenn (and others) do have a valid point re: assets on "tax day."
The SIM tracks our earnings already, even neatly organized by type. What would be wrong with graduated taxation on income? Leave stuff like article writing out of it (tax free income would be a great way to encourage more writers...) but otherwise tax on yearly income, including stud fees as those tend to be the bread and butter of the richest stables.

Is it "fun?" Maybe not, but neither are random injuries and having your blue hens produce claimers, and we accept those things as part of the game. If inflation management is necessary for the success of the SIM, I'm all for it. Take my couple percent at the end of the year. I'd just blow it BSAing mares anyway

I might theoretically be open to an income tax, but I do think it is inferior. If an income tax were implemented, necessarily all profits in years prior are exempt. A "cash tax" or "bank account tax" like mine necessarily taxes the balance of income and expenses in the long term, which more ideally addresses the core problem of SIMflation and excess cash.

Another advantage of a cash tax is that it discourages extreme, stagnant wealth and actually encourages economic activity - breeding, buying, etc in order to reduce taxable income (low as the rate may be). This would be good for the game. Hypothetically, an income tax could tax someone into the negative if that individual were to invest a big enough chunk of their bank account during the year, and that's a flaw.

[Tim Matthews]

Ronnie pointed out one of the reasons why I don’t think anyone would actually have fun in a taxable assets SIM world.

Because as soon as there are taxes, in whatever way shape or form they come to pass, the entire SIM will become an amateur detective agency, on the lookout for small or large examples of tax evasion.

And rest assured, tax evasion would happen. Along with it would come the fraudulent sheltering or misrepresentation of assets.

But how could you prove it was happening? And even if you could, do you really want to invest your own SIM time in tracking down the cash records of other people’s accounts? Now we become SIM owners, trainers, breeders.....and auditors? Fun.

— Private stats & bankrolls would be gone.
— Private auctions now become tax liabilities at certain times of the year.
— Honestly, the limitations needed to regulate such a system are onerous at best, and impossible to implement at worst.
— if I was SIM management, the last thing I would want to do is act as a tax-collection agency for the billions of fake dollars floating around in a fun, SIMulation game.

The whole thing would make our TBS horse pin-hooking issues of SIM years past look like a game of Candy Land between preschoolers in terms of its relative innocence.

Think twice about the long-term effects of SIM taxation.

This post is, not to be dramatic, insane scaremongering.

Dave already said it, but the tax would be a once a year, automated, on SIM cash. Why would private bankrolls or stats be gone? Who proposed that? Who would be interested in monitoring others' bankrolls to make sure they aren't evading such a low tax? This idea of SIM "auditors" or "private investigators" is crazy. You guys are inventing ways to be mad at a very modest tax.

How would you even evade such a tax? You can't create a new account, that's already against the rules. Lend your millions to another player for tax day... who then has that money taxed? What's the point? It's such an insignificant percentage anyway, no one would ever want to participate in such a ridiculous scheme.

Tim’s plan isn’t complicated, I’ll give you that as well. But, the even simpler solution is to not tax at all. Saves everyone multiple levels of hassle.

What is the hassle? Be specific. What potential problems could it cause? If the conspiracies it would cause are SO VAST and problematic, surely you can brainstorm one or two of them?

I haven't seen a single post describe to me an actual objection to the tax. It's all been invented problems and some others just... vaguely complaining...

[Tim Matthews]

See...... estate planning or long term asset holding is cool too, and you’re saying it’s fine to tax April Eddy 5.7 Million on her net cash worth, just because she has it, without even considering what she makes in a season. Wealthy people, in general, accumulated their wealth by solid pro-active resource management — and this plan basically tells a player like April that she now owes the SIM money for being a solid manager of resources.

I addressed this in my reply to Laura, but my plan is acutally better at encouraging economic activity than an income tax. April is an interesting case because I'm not actually sure where she gets her money. Is it the exchange?

Again, the idea is not "we're punishing you for being good at the game." The idea is we need to take cash out of the economy to prevent simflation, and this is the best way to do it, and honestly the richest players will hardly notice it, and have plenty left over.

So if it’s bank balance tax on a certain day, why would I not just basically run my cash balance into the ground to pay fewer taxes, since horses are all I can spend my cash on anyhow?

You can, but it would be stupid, because you'd be losing money. Remember how small the rate is.

[Tim Matthews]

Yes, the "Tim Tax Plan" would be very unfair to April and others like her who measure their success by the size of their bankrolls. More importantly, this plan would be very unfair to Em. Of course, many vigilant Simsters would "help" Em out by pointing out any financial transactions that could be related to tax evasion.

As I demonstrated earlier, April would still have by far more money than anyone else. A tax like mine alone *cannot* reduce her spot in the money rankings, by virtue of mathematics. Plus, measuring success by bankroll is silly and should not be protected. This objection is nonsensical.

I much prefer "Pete's Emancipation Proclamation". Various Sim characters are paid for their efforts (e.g., vet) while jockeys are slaves to their owners. Let us assume Pete succeeds in his efforts to emancipate these slaves. Further, these jockeys then readily agree that they will be paid on a commission only basis (e.g., they would earn 10% of any purse money won by their mounts). Em is overjoyed and as part of the emancipation celebration, she raises the amount of "Invented Money" to a record high (e.g, $1.4 billion).

You want to take away 10% of my yearly race earnings yet you're deathly opposed to a much smaller tax on stagnant cash? Huh??

[Mr. Lord Rich]

I’m not opposed to increased day rates, expenses, taxes ect ect ect. Put them in the game if the goal is to remove money from the game.

What I am opposed to is focusing on one type of player (the rich) and penalizing them for putting in the extra work, making the smarter moves, managing a better budget, or simply being in the game long enough to accumulate a bigger stack of cash.

If you tax one you better tax all.

[Danny Derby]

Yes, the "Tim Tax Plan" would be very unfair to April and others like her who measure their success by the size of their bankrolls. More importantly, this plan would be very unfair to Em. Of course, many vigilant Simsters would "help" Em out by pointing out any financial transactions that could be related to tax evasion.

As I demonstrated earlier, April would still have by far more money than anyone else. A tax like mine alone *cannot* reduce her spot in the money rankings, by virtue of mathematics. Plus, measuring success by bankroll is silly and should not be protected. This objection is nonsensical.

I much prefer "Pete's Emancipation Proclamation". Various Sim characters are paid for their efforts (e.g., vet) while jockeys are slaves to their owners. Let us assume Pete succeeds in his efforts to emancipate these slaves. Further, these jockeys then readily agree that they will be paid on a commission only basis (e.g., they would earn 10% of any purse money won by their mounts). Em is overjoyed and as part of the emancipation celebration, she raises the amount of "Invented Money" to a record high (e.g, $1.4 billion).

You want to take away 10% of my yearly race earnings yet you're deathly opposed to a much smaller tax on stagnant cash? Huh??

So taking money from April is fair game, but as soon as it impacts you then you're baffled? I'm sure that if Ronnie's plan came to fruition that people would adapt to the change!

[Tim Matthews]

I’m not opposed to increased day rates, expenses, taxes ect ect ect. Put them in the game if the goal is to remove money from the game.

What I am opposed to is focusing on one type of player (the rich) and penalizing them for putting in the extra work, making the smarter moves, managing a better budget, or simply being in the game long enough to accumulate a bigger stack of cash.

If you tax one you better tax all.

This point has been addressed so many times. Awful lot of dramatic rhetoric for someone's 25,000,001st fictional dollar being "taxed" *slightly* higher than their 25,000,000th.

I also want to point out that the order of richest players physically cannot change due to my tax proposal. The nature of mathematics prevents it. The richest player will still be the richest, the second will still be second, etc. And I'll say it again, remember how small the rate is.