Have Some Money, Want to Buy BUT....

[Regina Moore]

Sellers,

Many of the mixed breed lists have suddenly bloated with unraced youngsters by "name" stallions out of crappy mares.

For me, the asking prices are beyond anything I would consider paying, even if I could easily afford them. (Call me crazy, but I generally consider the mare to be about 50% importance of the genetic equation.)

If any of you truly want to sell, and give the buyer a fighting chance to actually make their money back, drop me a PM offering some of the horses for $5,000. I'll probably take one or two off your hands, and hope that the sire line thoroughly dominates the ultra weak female side (or hope that the female side has some hidden gems in the programming!)

The breed doesn't matter.

Regina

[Bryan Doolittle]

It's a tough time to pick up young Mixed anything. At the end of last season only 62 QH's mares were breed. ( Landon and I bred 27 of them). Another 7 were given away by the Steward in chat one night. Right now your best chance is probably through Create a Horse. I've had some money makers from Cutting Corners, if you are looking at the QH's.

[Regina Moore]

Bryan,

I've done lots of CAH, and have been pretty happy with the results.

I would just like to support fellow players and the breeding industry of the mixed breeds -- and have when the price makes sense.

For mixed breeds currently racing, the prices have mostly settled down where sellers generally are no longer asking 20,000 for a horse that hasn't hit the board in five tries. (There were such prices for poor racehorses just a month ago.)

Broodmares prices (the few that are offered) are generally reasonable too.

It's indeed the youngsters -- whether pinhooked CAH with below average to lousy works, or bred from awful performing mares -- that have pricing that makes no sense to me. (Making sense meaning that, as the buyer, I have some possibility of earning my money back). And it especially makes no sense when someone like me can just spend three bucks and create my own at any age. (I realize that, for some, spending three bucks for game points isn't possible.)

If it is indeed a seller's market for young mixed breeds and they can sell for prices that the horses are unlikely to ever earn back, then all the power to those sellers. I'm just not seeing these youngster's sell quickly, like there's a heavy demand. Maybe buyers have been burned enough on spending large amounts of money on horses that will never earn it back that they're more savvy now. Perhaps the mixed breeds have lost much of the luster of their novelty. Obviously (and understandably) players are hanging on to their best horses and selling culls. But how a cull equates to a 25,000 or so price is what I'm not understanding.

I'm quite happy with my 20+ mixed breed CAH. Almost all my 2yos have worked a lot faster than horses I've seen with 75,000 - 200,000 asking prices.

If the young horse market is always going to be where the "bottom" is a 15,000 to 20,000 price tag, then I'll continue to pay real money for GP horses, and breed my own (assuming a few of my own youngsters pan out). But I suspect that the young horse market is going to settle down, as well, when buyers will no longer pay double digits for horses with dubious potential.

I'll just hang onto my SIM money until then.

[Landon Alexander]

You have to also consider the prices of the stallions of these yearlings and the price that a broodmare may have cost. It's silly to sell a yearling for $5000 when it cost $15000 to use the stallion to breed the yearling in the first place. That's a $10000 loss. It is a risk buying yearlings from the buyer's perspective, I understand that since I'm generally the buyer. But as a seller, you have to be able to make a small profit. The QH's and standardbreds are going to sell for more money than the Arabs, Appys, and Paints because the purse money is greater for those breeds (QH, Pacer, & Trotters). Another thing to consider is not all of the retired mares were given a chance to find their best racing distance. So from my standpoint, my QH yearlings that are by Dbacks will not be selling for anything less than $15,000/20,000 since that stallion cost $15,000 to use. Goldmine only cost $5,000 so I can see the point of selling his yearlings for less, but he was also a fantastic horse on the track and his yearlings have a good chance of doing well, too... thus the inflation on his yearlings.

If anybody is interested in any of my yearlings for sell and don't like the price being asked you can always PM me w/an offer.

I will most likely be creating an auction here very soon as I am attempting to downsize my herd. Most of the horses in this auction will be yearlings and breeding stock.

[Regina Moore]

Another thing to consider is not all of the retired mares were given a chance to find their best racing distance

I think that's a good point, and on the level of a mare that might have raced only once or twice. It's just that each bad loss is a strike against once a horse starts performing (and each good effort a plus), when looking at it from the buyer's standpoint.

It's silly to sell a yearling for $5000 when it cost $15000 to use the stallion to breed the yearling in the first place. That's a $10000 loss.

Or maybe it's equally dubious to breed mares with poor race records to expensive stallions?

As a potential buyer, I don't think it's my responsibility to pay for the seller's choices. I have to look at the potential for earning *my* money back for myself, not the seller's money back for the seller's sake.

If one breeds two horses, and suspects that they might sell the offspring, surely some consideration needs to be given as to how marketable (attractive) that offspring is going to be to the buying public. Maybe a stallion is in demand enough that buyers overlook the weak mare side, and the high stud fee is justified. Maybe not.

I will most likely be creating an auction here very soon

Surely, auctions are the most effective for establishing fair market value, and I don't think there's been one just for mixed breeds since I've been around. Regardless of whether I bought or not, I'd be very interested in how the prices sift out, since I'm interested in all the mixed breeds. (And one day I, too, will no doubt be selling, and I don't expect it will be an easy task, from many standpoints.) I suspect it will be like most auctions -- the top of the market is in great demand and sells high, and the bottom just doesn't attract much attention. And most buyers end up picking and choosing, and weighing risk versus cost, at the middle.

[Leonard Beagle]

If one breeds two horses, and suspects that they might sell the offspring, surely some consideration needs to be given as to how marketable (attractive) that offspring is going to be to the buying public. Maybe a stallion is in demand enough that buyers overlook the weak mare side, and the high stud fee is justified. Maybe not.

Regina, I have to admit that I chuckled when I read this.
You are most certainly giving some people too much credit.
Some folks are notorious for breeding whatever horses they can get their hands on, and turning around and selling them hoping the newest players will buy. I'm convinced this goes on.

Good thing for you to have recognized this so early on!

[Josh Lamp I]

i also dislike having to pay these huge prices but if you want to be the best you have to have the best.

edit: i am referring to proven horses

[Leigh Ann Anderson]

One thing to remember is with Apps, Paints and QH's the pool of 2YO's is pretty small. Just by looking at today's numbers, there are 54, 51 and 55 2 YO colts on the ground. This year the Sim has already carded 11 2yo stakes for the colorful breeds and 10 for the quarters. You have a really good chance of picking up some stakes purse money with those kinds of ratios, especially when you consider some of those colts will be intered in maiden/claiming/NW3/Allowance races that will also be carded each week. So, even a perpetual maiden has a decent shot at being a money earner, unlike with the TB's where there are 5500+ 2yo colts waiting for a shot at ~380 stakes races.

Am I saying that some of the mixed breeds are overpriced? Yeah, but so are a lot of tb's. People set prices differently. Some set a price with the thought that someone will message them and negotiate a lower fee. Some people look at the horse and think what would I pay for this one if I saw it on the sales page. Some price just to get them out of the barn. Different strategies for different stables--that's one of the things that makes this game so much fun.

[Regina Moore]

Just by looking at today's numbers, there are 54, 51 and 55 2 YO colts on the ground.

I had actually looked up this same information for all the mixed breeds just the other day, and was astounded at how small the foal crops are. So, I think there is definitely merit to your point. On the other hand, a yearling today won't race until Year 25, and no one knows what the mixed breed situation might be like a full game year from now.

Also, I'd like to consider the larger picture and breeding down the line. I'd expect a stakes-placed horse that beat other horses to be a better quality breeding animal than a horse that became stakes-placed be default (ie, they had nobody behind them). I don't know about others, but when it comes to the mixed breeds, I frequently look at that kind of information, because I have found that horses which look very consistent and high quality at first glance, might turn out to be horses that have simply been competing in very small fields. My judgment of a animal's value is affected by such.

[Hope Bentley]

I am sooo with you on this one Regina! I would love to buy some Quarter horse fillies or mares, but theres no way I am paying 20,000 or even 15,000 for something totally unproven from a not so great mare, and the horse having a not so great work times! I am also not sure I would ever make the money back,...and I am definately not rich enough yet to take the plunge with those types, no matter how much I want my Quarter horse filly! Its a pity....but like many other players wanting to do the same(try the mixed breeds, and cant afford a decent one) I guess I'll have to wait til my trusty thoroughbreds make me money or some of the mixed breed breeders and owners, put their prices down if they really want to sell or offer something thats worth the $20,000.

[Leigh Ann Anderson]

Also, I'd like to consider the larger picture and breeding down the line. I'd expect a stakes-placed horse that beat other horses to be a better quality breeding animal than a horse that became stakes-placed be default (ie, they had nobody behind them). I don't know about others, but when it comes to the mixed breeds, I frequently look at that kind of information, because I have found that horses which look very consistent and high quality at first glance, might turn out to be horses that have simply been competing in very small fields. My judgment of a animal's value is affected by such.

I think we can all agree that a stakes winning or any winning mare has a better chance to produce high quality foals, but there are cases of maidens or so-so mares producing a big horse. My personal opinion is that with the mixed breeds, you'll have a better chance of that average mare producing quality than with the larger population of TB's in the Sim.

And if you are not interested in the offered price, there is the option to CAH. And my understanding with CAH's, the going rate for an unworked one is around 15k Sim cash.

I'll go back to one of my original points, if you don't like the price, contact the owner. It's much like when the mixed breeds went online, the first ones with good works or winning times went for several hundred thousand dollars. By mid season they were a fraction of that. Any new toy is much more valuable when it is one of the first on the block and all of your friends want to play with it.

[Landon Alexander]

Just a tidbit... most of the initial retired mixed breed mares are "unproven." ... and, from my own stock, I've noticed some of my "unproven" mares producing some really nice looking yearlings. If the unproven mares only produced bad foals then the mixed breeds would be in big trouble real early. I feel right now is the best time to take a chance on an "unproven" foal. And besides that, once the yearlings start working and they put up good times you won't be finding them for $20,000 or even $25,000... They will be going for double that at the least.


Anyway, I lowered my prices and put my yearlings in an auction. I guess it's still too much money to ask for...

[Melissa Mae]

I agree with you to a point. When I was trying to buy quarter horse mares the prices were outrageous (I tracked one that was at 20k for 3 weeks and she was a maiden). I finally broke down and went to claiming races and actually claimed some nice mares that might just be at the wrong distance and some that just need equipment changes.

On the other hand I can see where breeders are on setting prices. Take my paint yearlings for example (they aren't for sale but this is approx what I would do if I sold them).

Treasured Biankus is by an amazing rl stallion and out of a stakes winning mare. Because of this I would price her on the upper levels of the market around 100-200k (depending on workouts). Once she starts racing, if she is successful it will take millions to get her away from me and even if she isn't as successful as her dam I would probably still keep her just because of her lines.

Little E would probably sell for less, around the 5-10k range because she is out of a maiden mare but her sire was good on the track. Once again, I like her chances to be half way decent so her price would go up with workouts if they were good and if she is successful (as in stakes winner) she'll be a million dollar horse.

She's So Country would probably start out in the 5k range BEFORE her workouts. I will only sell my yearlings IF I can make the fee back (which someone else said above me) and in my mind, if you don't like her than don't buy. It's not that big of a loss to me because I bred her to a stallion that I think will be successful.

Now say if I had a foal/yearling out of Strawfly Firewater and by China Grove, it would take millions to get the foal out of my hands before anything is done with it because that foal is almost guarenteed to be successful.

My prices are probably higher than others when it comes to foals I've bred (horses that I've bought and sold I've taken a loss on by selling them for 1-3k just because I wanted them gone) because I breed them for me. If I do put them up for sale (rarely) then they aren't going to be cheap because I have no problem racing them myself. It's up to the buyer to decide if they want to pay my prices or look somewhere else, but on a foal such as Treasured Biankus or a Strawfly foal (no matter who I breed her to) you are going to have to pay high prices. You may not make them back on the track but you will probably make them back in the breeding shed (an example of this would be Asleep As I Am, she sold for 31 million, so there's no way she's making it back on the track but her foals will be worth millions because of who she is by/out of and who her brother is).

I think as a buyer you are in a sellers market because the breeds are so new that the sellers are putting big prices on the horses just because of the quantity out there. But when someone pays a stud fee of say 15k, that foal is not going to go cheap until it proves it is a dud on the track. It is up to the buyer if they want to pay that price or wait for something else to come along, but that something else might just be a crappy maiden that no matter what distance it races at still loses. The rule of thumb that I was told by an old breeder is that foals should be priced/worth at 4x the stud fee. Maybe that's too high for some but if you think of it that way you are getting a deal by just paying 1-2k more than a stud fee. There are costs that go into breeding/raising these babies and sellers/breeders have to take those costs into consideration when pricing them.

Sorry, I didn't mean to write a book just giving you the other perspective (even though on some points I do agree with you).