Lets Talk About Gelding....

Ian Nicastrin · Post by **Ian Nicastrin** » 17 years ago

I wanted to spark a little discourse on this subject. So, when is the proper age? What benefits to we hope to gain by gelding? How can you identify a horse that needs it?

I personally won't geld, and I get ticked off when people race a horse twice, he tires and dosen't do so well, and off go any chance of having little foals before other "equipment" options were tested. I know it can help a horse focus and be more willing to listen and respond to the jockey... instead of looking for hot mare rump... but I would rather play around with blinkers and f8s.

Sarah Chase · Post by **Sarah Chase** » 17 years ago

Try this first, it might answer your questions ...

<a href='index.php?showtopic=996&hl=' target='_blank'>ind...owtopic=996&hl=</a>

I don't see anything wrong with gelding a colt after 2 starts. Over 2000 foals each year are born (I'd assume roughly half are colts) and the number of colts who actually make it to stud duty are low. Maybe 5-10 a year, and only a few of those select 5-10 may actually be successful as a sire.

Edited to add: It's a case by case basis. Obviously if a son of Loki Paradise hasn't broken his maiden in 2 starts at short distances as a 2yo, no one's going to geld that boy. On the other hand, if there's a horse with mediocre breeding coming in last or second to last in several starts, he's supposed to be a sprinter, and equipment was fiddled with, the chances are VERY slim he'll make it to the shed, and gelding is a viable option.

Emily Mitchell · Post by **Emily Mitchell** » 17 years ago

I geld almost all of my horses ages 3 and up. 2 y/os for me are rare because a lot can change in that year. But, if they still have not broken their maiden by the time they have turned 3 and their pedigree is not AMAZING... then they get the snip snip.

Even the winners who are decent performers I will geld- such as <a href='http://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.php?HorseID=16150' target='_blank'>Vineyard</a>- I will geld because even if they win some allowance races they are NOT stakes quality horses. If a horse cannot really compete at the stakes level he has no place in the breeding shed.

I am pretty sure the Steward has indicated in a previous post that gelding does actually help performance- though I don't think it is by very much. EDIT: Yep, it's in the link Sarah posted.

Every single horse (perhaps with a 2 y/o restriction) that runs in claiming races should be gelded. A horse that bad should never reproduce.

Becca Banner · Post by **Becca Banner** » 17 years ago

Em has said in the past that gelding a horse can only help his chances, so a lot of people geld for that reason.

I have gelded some of my two year olds because I personally think they won't likely improve over allowance grade, if that, because they aren't that well bred. I do this prior to selling them so that they can't reproduce. There are some horses that I think its a shame they were gelded and can't imagine why they were. Satyr, an awesome Satelite son, was gelded. Then there are others who I imagine, like Funny Cide, had to be gelded due to some medical reason.

I don't think gelding is a bad thing. I don't know how you identify one who needs/should have it beyond poor performance.

Post by **The Steward** » 17 years ago

As a sidenote, I wouldn't retire any of your geldings after this season. I'd wait a bit.

Ian Nicastrin · Post by **Ian Nicastrin** » 17 years ago

Thanks guys, I figured 2 yo was prob too young and that 3 was more typical. Sounds like a good resort when other options have been tried.

Eric Nalbone · Post by **Eric Nalbone** » 17 years ago

I'm with Sarah; all in all I think I've seen one or two SIM geldings that I wished wasn't a gelding, those being Proskoa or No Delay, but being geldings probably helped them achieve what they did.

I could go through the year's two year olds and probably pick out 100 that have the potential to become real big sires, and by the end of the year, I could have that list cut to 20. None of us geld many of our horses, either because we just don't care enough or because we insist on holding out hope that the horses will miraculously decide to wake up one day as stakes horses, but false hope is pretty much all it is. So, I'd say gelding horses is actually UNDER-utilized, rather than over-utilized.

Eric Nalbone · Post by **Eric Nalbone** » 17 years ago

Sarah Chase wrote: Try this first, it might answer your questions ...

<a href='index.php?showtopic=996&hl=' target='_blank'>ind...owtopic=996&hl=</a>

I don't see anything wrong with gelding a colt after 2 starts. Over 2000 foals each year are born (I'd assume roughly half are colts) and the number of colts who actually make it to stud duty are low. Maybe 5-10 a year, and only a few of those select 5-10 may actually be successful as a sire.

Edited to add: It's a case by case basis. Obviously if a son of Loki Paradise hasn't broken his maiden in 2 starts at short distances as a 2yo, no one's going to geld that boy. On the other hand, if there's a horse with mediocre breeding coming in last or second to last in several starts, he's supposed to be a sprinter, and equipment was fiddled with, the chances are VERY slim he'll make it to the shed, and gelding is a viable option.

Epic thanks you for this note! He certainly will not be gelded.

Susie Rydell · Post by **Susie Rydell** » 17 years ago

Eric Nalbone wrote: all in all I think I've seen one or two SIM geldings that I wished wasn't a gelding, those being Proskoa or No Delay, but being geldings probably helped them achieve what they did.

No love for Havoli Makahikihou or Whileaworldsleeps?

Janey Adams · Post by **Janey Adams** » 17 years ago

So should this horse be gelded?

<a href='http://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.php?HorseID=21286' target='_blank'>http://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.php ... D=21286</a>

Alysse Peverell · Post by **Alysse Peverell** » 17 years ago

I'd vote a big old yes on that one.

Susie Rydell · Post by **Susie Rydell** » 17 years ago

FWIW, I currently have 21 older boys in training. 8 are currently intact... and my reasoning... of those, 4 are not stakes winners, one of those is MG1SP. Of the remaining three... one of them hasn't been gelded because of his pedigree and he's still showing signs that he needs to mature more. Another is a useful, hard-knocking sort that I think could make a nice, low-budget, racehorse sire especially since there are now state-bred races. The final one is being cut if he doesn't win his next start. Which is sad, 'cause I adore his pedigree, but enough is enough already.

Becca Banner · Post by **Becca Banner** » 17 years ago

Three of my boys were cut before I got them, which was okay on two of them, but the third I just picked up, it seems like unfair. He only had one start!

I'm still holding out on my last one, Seeingthroughtears. He's a good guy, wins his allowances by great lengths, but there is still that elusive stakes win to be had. He's got good breeding (Storm A Fortress/Battle Cry). I don't know if I'm going to put him on the block as an inexpensive sire or not, I'd appreciate some suggestions on that.

Ali Weasley · Post by **Ali Weasley** » 17 years ago

I recently gelded Staff, which I may or may not regret later on. He has amazing pedigree, but he wasn't running up to it and I kinda decided he wouldn't get mares at the rate he was going, so snippity snip they went.

Let me know if I should kick myself, but I just didn't see him getting the mares his lines deserved.

Dave Shields · Post by **Dave Shields** » 17 years ago

I think everyone has touched on the main points, but I have one more to add. Sometimes we as trainers don't realize what a horse could really be good at. One of my example horses would be Nice Hat. I was running him on dirt and was thinking of gelding him and giving him away. I made a mistake entering him in what was going to be a last attempt in a easier field to try and break his maiden, however I failed to realize it was a turf race. Then he won. Now I won't say he is stakes worthy super champ, but I am going to keep him intact to experiment with mares when he retires. I keep thinking where could he have been had I made this mistake early on.

So I guess the point is, try things out like other surfaces, equipment, distances before you geld IF you have an interest in possible future breedings. And if you come across a horse like Nice Hat, don't expect anyone else to want to breed to him - do it more for your own stable. I will have several stallions that won't be standing for others (unless someone asks which I highly doubt) just so I can experiment.

For horses that the blood runs heavier in the SIM, I would say after 6-8 races if they haven't broke their maiden, they are probably not worth keeping intact. The main thing for keeping stallions is to have everyone want to spend their money to send their mares to your guy. I don't think I would geld a 2yo though, they just haven't come into being themselves at that age (in my opinion).