Yep! I've been told the same way to deal with a rank horse, Ali. Except for us, it was to kick back if kicked and punch if bitten. But I got lucky in the anti-biting department. Our stud happened to be fond of redheads. No one else was allowed in his stall without being pummeled, but a redhead could work for hours with him just wuffling in the corner. Wierd studling...
I'll always try the gentle approach first. I tell my "kids" (read: cats and dog) that we can do things the nice way or the "mean" way. A pop on the butt or a technique that vet techs use called stretching (nothing mean.. the cat is scruffed while lying on the ground, and the hind legs are stretched out.. keeps the cat from building up strength to kick you or twist and attack without harming it.. I just do it until the biting frenzy dies down) goes a long way into not getting bitten again... wierdly enough, especially with my American Shorthair, Ella. Jaws of steel finally stopped trying to bite when I clip her nails. Next step! Baths!
*fears bathing Ella*
She is NOT the product of my upbringing. I claim no responsibility for her.
Grr
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Emily Mitchell
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Ali, add me to the list of the people who agree with what you've said. But, I only smack my horses in the nose... I've been told that hitting them closer to the eyes will make them headshy. I'm STILL retraining one of my horses who must have had terrible experiences with people hitting her head before I got her. She's gotten a lot better but she's still spooky about things near her head.
RIVERSTONE FARM ~ Home of Champions ~ Farms in Kentucky, Germany, and Japan ~
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Jarrn Shikage
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Because I'm much too lazy to write this out in paragraph form, I have put into a list the reasons why I don't believe in Cesar Millan.
--His 'alpha roll' technique of which he is notorious for is outdated, and the principles behind it have been proven to false. The alpha roll was created to mimic the way a dominant wolf pins a submissive wolf to show who's leader. However, studies ended up showing that the submissive ones rolled onto their back themselves, and the alphas did not roll them over. The alpha roll places a dog into an extremely vulnerable position, and can oftentimes bite out of fear.
--<a href='http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12648003/' target='_blank'>A dog was severly injured at his facility.</a> It wasn't Cesar himself who did the dog harm, but as he is an advocate of putting dogs on a treadmill, I can't help but fault him. Besides, the dog was their for animal and people aggression, so why was it on a treadmill?
--He seems to think that misbehaves out of disrespect, when generally it is because of miscommunication, simply not knowing what is expected of them, or because the owners inadvertently teach them bad habits.
--He goes in acting as a wolf substitute, and trying to show the dogs who's the alpha male. He forces them into a state he calls 'calm submissive' when they're actually shutting down because of stress. Eventually, the dogs will fight back, and someone will get hurt. His methods are not long term, but rather quick fix solutions.
--The main technique he uses is to expose a dog to a circumstance where it reacts with fear, and then keeping the dog their until it stops reacting. An example, given by Andrew Luescher, [DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist] puts it into perspective: "To take a human example: arachnophobia would be treated by locking a person into a closet, releasing hundreds of spiders into that closet, and keeping the door shut until the person stops reacting. The person might be cured by that, but also might be severely disturbed and would have gone through an excessive amount of stress."
--From what I could see, not one of these dogs had any issue with dominance, and none these dogs wanted to control their owners.
--In the last episode [one of the only ones I watched, actually], the dog suffers from a compulsive disorder. Now from what I understand, it's an imbalance in neurotransmitter levels. To me, that is a medical condition and is not solved through punishment.
--In one episode, Millan used a shock collar to try and modify its behavior. Both afraid and in pain, the dog attacked and bit his owner on the arm. The audience was never told that the Millan was using a shock collar.
And, I'm out of time. Sorry it took so long to reply xD <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>* fics are my downfall...</span>
--His 'alpha roll' technique of which he is notorious for is outdated, and the principles behind it have been proven to false. The alpha roll was created to mimic the way a dominant wolf pins a submissive wolf to show who's leader. However, studies ended up showing that the submissive ones rolled onto their back themselves, and the alphas did not roll them over. The alpha roll places a dog into an extremely vulnerable position, and can oftentimes bite out of fear.
--<a href='http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12648003/' target='_blank'>A dog was severly injured at his facility.</a> It wasn't Cesar himself who did the dog harm, but as he is an advocate of putting dogs on a treadmill, I can't help but fault him. Besides, the dog was their for animal and people aggression, so why was it on a treadmill?
--He seems to think that misbehaves out of disrespect, when generally it is because of miscommunication, simply not knowing what is expected of them, or because the owners inadvertently teach them bad habits.
--He goes in acting as a wolf substitute, and trying to show the dogs who's the alpha male. He forces them into a state he calls 'calm submissive' when they're actually shutting down because of stress. Eventually, the dogs will fight back, and someone will get hurt. His methods are not long term, but rather quick fix solutions.
--The main technique he uses is to expose a dog to a circumstance where it reacts with fear, and then keeping the dog their until it stops reacting. An example, given by Andrew Luescher, [DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist] puts it into perspective: "To take a human example: arachnophobia would be treated by locking a person into a closet, releasing hundreds of spiders into that closet, and keeping the door shut until the person stops reacting. The person might be cured by that, but also might be severely disturbed and would have gone through an excessive amount of stress."
--From what I could see, not one of these dogs had any issue with dominance, and none these dogs wanted to control their owners.
--In the last episode [one of the only ones I watched, actually], the dog suffers from a compulsive disorder. Now from what I understand, it's an imbalance in neurotransmitter levels. To me, that is a medical condition and is not solved through punishment.
--In one episode, Millan used a shock collar to try and modify its behavior. Both afraid and in pain, the dog attacked and bit his owner on the arm. The audience was never told that the Millan was using a shock collar.
And, I'm out of time. Sorry it took so long to reply xD <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>* fics are my downfall...</span>
Just Look - STB Trotter - $2k
~11:7-3-0
~11:7-3-0
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Sarah Chase
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- Joined: 18 years ago
Haha don't worry, I love *, too.
Here's my viewpoint on the points you listed, thanks for taking the time to describe your position.
- I personally don't advocate alpha rolls either, as getting bitten is common. Despite his use of alpha rolls, I do support him because he teaches pack structure. Dogs are pack animals and treating them like furry humans doesn't a happy dog make.
- Yes, I heard about that lawsuit. I don't know what went into that, sounds like he put his trust in an employee who wasn't up to par. I'm reserving judgment on that one for later. The reason the dog was on a treadmill was to burn off some energy. Tired dogs are good dogs, and a tired dog is easier to deal with than an energetic, aggressive dog.
- If someone is training a dog to lie down on command, and the dog doesn't do it, then absolutely, it could very well be miscommunication. Obedience has three phases, the learning, correction, and distraction phase. If you move on to the distraction phase without having the learning phase down solid, of course it's unfair to correct a dog to not dropping because the dog didn't know. That said, Cesar isn't going to people's houses to teach obedience commands. He goes there to treat issues that are part of a bigger whole, and the fact is, people are letting their dogs rule the house. Dogs can love without respecting. Dogs dragging owners down the street, barking maniacally at the door, etc, to me that *is* disrespect. Dominant dogs will believe it's their responsibility to control the situations, whereas a submissive dog who clearly knows his position in the pack will relegate those tasks to the leader. When people allow these "bad habits" to form, they are basically gradually handing over their power to the dog. If the dog sees no clear leader, the dog is left to step into the role of pack leader. So I totally agree with people unknowingly promoting undesirable behavior, but in the big picture of things, the dogs are being dominant entities.
- Consistency is key. Owners have to stick to the new plan or else the dog could take over again. I do not see the dogs shutting down because of stress at all. Do you have a link or something I can read that says the dogs are shutting down? Also, a dog will probably resist at first, but that's why people have to learn how to handle dogs in the safest manner possible. Dog bites are the responsibility of humans. If you live your life as a responsible owner, you and your dog will be happier.
- This is called flooding, I believe. Okay. That DVM is comparing apples to oranges. Dogs do not react the same way as humans. The key is not to overdo it. Taking a dog who is scared of going for walks outside and not letting it go back home until it's calm and relaxed, that's good. Taking a dog that's scared of water and throwing him in the deep side of a pool, not good. Running water from a hose onto a waterphobic dog is fine. Dogs also recover from most things quicker than humans, and the things they don't seem to be recovering from actually can be pinned on the owners and environment a lot of times. Now pardon me, this is nothing against you personally, but 99% of vets should NOT be giving dog handling/training advice. They're clueless. They were trained in medicine, not behavior. Frankly speaking, that DVM/Veterinary Behaviorist is talking [expletive]. Don't even get me started on the food the allopathic vets recommend. Eeek!
- I respectfully disagree. The behaviors the most of these dogs were showing were symptoms of dominance. I.e. pulling the owner down the street, jumping all over guests, biting, etc. I'm not saying all the dogs were full fledged dangerous and dominant dogs, but many were well on their way there. In your eyes, what would you consider to be a truly dominant dog? Dominant dogs want to control their situations.
- I come from more of a holistic view on dogs, and I see compulsions as a mixture of genetic problems (backyard breeding, anyone?), lack of exercise, and lack of discipline. Exercise will go a long way in stabilizing the dog. Bored dogs, especially dogs who were bred to WORK, will go crazy with nothing to do. It's the owners' responsibility to provide sufficient physical and mental stimulation for their pets. Fair enough that you see it as a medical condition. In that case, then, what drugs would you recommend? Have you seen any of the current medications work?
- In that episode, he used a setting too high for the dog and the dog redirected itself onto the owner. This was a mistake of Cesar's, and the dog had absolutely no malicious intent to the owner. Milan reportedly wanted NGC to let him explain the e-collar, but they pulled it. That was their fault. In a more recent episode, he used an e-collar successfully to keep a working cattle dog away from tractor wheels. On a more appropriate stimulation setting, the bite wouldn't have happened. I personally believe e-collars are useful in certain settings and applications.
Thanks for reading all that! Good to know we can have respectful, civilized conversations on this board.
Like I said, that's just how I see it, and what you posted was how you saw it. If what you're doing works for you, great. This is what works for me. *shrug*
Here's my viewpoint on the points you listed, thanks for taking the time to describe your position.
- I personally don't advocate alpha rolls either, as getting bitten is common. Despite his use of alpha rolls, I do support him because he teaches pack structure. Dogs are pack animals and treating them like furry humans doesn't a happy dog make.
- Yes, I heard about that lawsuit. I don't know what went into that, sounds like he put his trust in an employee who wasn't up to par. I'm reserving judgment on that one for later. The reason the dog was on a treadmill was to burn off some energy. Tired dogs are good dogs, and a tired dog is easier to deal with than an energetic, aggressive dog.
- If someone is training a dog to lie down on command, and the dog doesn't do it, then absolutely, it could very well be miscommunication. Obedience has three phases, the learning, correction, and distraction phase. If you move on to the distraction phase without having the learning phase down solid, of course it's unfair to correct a dog to not dropping because the dog didn't know. That said, Cesar isn't going to people's houses to teach obedience commands. He goes there to treat issues that are part of a bigger whole, and the fact is, people are letting their dogs rule the house. Dogs can love without respecting. Dogs dragging owners down the street, barking maniacally at the door, etc, to me that *is* disrespect. Dominant dogs will believe it's their responsibility to control the situations, whereas a submissive dog who clearly knows his position in the pack will relegate those tasks to the leader. When people allow these "bad habits" to form, they are basically gradually handing over their power to the dog. If the dog sees no clear leader, the dog is left to step into the role of pack leader. So I totally agree with people unknowingly promoting undesirable behavior, but in the big picture of things, the dogs are being dominant entities.
- Consistency is key. Owners have to stick to the new plan or else the dog could take over again. I do not see the dogs shutting down because of stress at all. Do you have a link or something I can read that says the dogs are shutting down? Also, a dog will probably resist at first, but that's why people have to learn how to handle dogs in the safest manner possible. Dog bites are the responsibility of humans. If you live your life as a responsible owner, you and your dog will be happier.
- This is called flooding, I believe. Okay. That DVM is comparing apples to oranges. Dogs do not react the same way as humans. The key is not to overdo it. Taking a dog who is scared of going for walks outside and not letting it go back home until it's calm and relaxed, that's good. Taking a dog that's scared of water and throwing him in the deep side of a pool, not good. Running water from a hose onto a waterphobic dog is fine. Dogs also recover from most things quicker than humans, and the things they don't seem to be recovering from actually can be pinned on the owners and environment a lot of times. Now pardon me, this is nothing against you personally, but 99% of vets should NOT be giving dog handling/training advice. They're clueless. They were trained in medicine, not behavior. Frankly speaking, that DVM/Veterinary Behaviorist is talking [expletive]. Don't even get me started on the food the allopathic vets recommend. Eeek!
- I respectfully disagree. The behaviors the most of these dogs were showing were symptoms of dominance. I.e. pulling the owner down the street, jumping all over guests, biting, etc. I'm not saying all the dogs were full fledged dangerous and dominant dogs, but many were well on their way there. In your eyes, what would you consider to be a truly dominant dog? Dominant dogs want to control their situations.
- I come from more of a holistic view on dogs, and I see compulsions as a mixture of genetic problems (backyard breeding, anyone?), lack of exercise, and lack of discipline. Exercise will go a long way in stabilizing the dog. Bored dogs, especially dogs who were bred to WORK, will go crazy with nothing to do. It's the owners' responsibility to provide sufficient physical and mental stimulation for their pets. Fair enough that you see it as a medical condition. In that case, then, what drugs would you recommend? Have you seen any of the current medications work?
- In that episode, he used a setting too high for the dog and the dog redirected itself onto the owner. This was a mistake of Cesar's, and the dog had absolutely no malicious intent to the owner. Milan reportedly wanted NGC to let him explain the e-collar, but they pulled it. That was their fault. In a more recent episode, he used an e-collar successfully to keep a working cattle dog away from tractor wheels. On a more appropriate stimulation setting, the bite wouldn't have happened. I personally believe e-collars are useful in certain settings and applications.
Thanks for reading all that! Good to know we can have respectful, civilized conversations on this board.
Like I said, that's just how I see it, and what you posted was how you saw it. If what you're doing works for you, great. This is what works for me. *shrug*Frayed - $75,000
Liveinthemoment - $25,000
Same - $10,000
It's Been Awhile - $10,000
Grindelwald - $10,000
Skywatching - $7,500
Liveinthemoment - $25,000
Same - $10,000
It's Been Awhile - $10,000
Grindelwald - $10,000
Skywatching - $7,500
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Ara Davies
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- Posts: 6065
- Joined: 17 years ago
Yes, she keeps sending me links to it.Sarah Chase wrote: Haha don't worry, I love *, too.
You're not getting a dead button...in fits of rage, John Slotman and Ara Davies and Jolene Danner would literally kill half their barns.
- The Steward
That's my new motto: Don't quit, just shut up.
- Bryan Doolittle
- The Steward
That's my new motto: Don't quit, just shut up.
- Bryan Doolittle
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Sarah Chase
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Ara Davies
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Why do you think I named my sexiest weanling Mr. Darcy?Sarah Chase wrote::wub: You know you love it. Don't try to hide it.Ara Davies wrote: Yes, she keeps sending me links to it.
Wait that sounds wrong
You're not getting a dead button...in fits of rage, John Slotman and Ara Davies and Jolene Danner would literally kill half their barns.
- The Steward
That's my new motto: Don't quit, just shut up.
- Bryan Doolittle
- The Steward
That's my new motto: Don't quit, just shut up.
- Bryan Doolittle
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Sarah Chase
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- Joined: 18 years ago
Ooh and I want to add to the above that some dogs respond well to systematic desensitization, while others require more of a 1, 2, 3, just do it and don't think about it approach. Humans are like that, too. 
The key for that spider example (though extreme) would be to not let the person escape the closet until they were calm. I assume Cesar does more flooding than systematic desensitization because he's short on time and trusts his judgment in finding the fine line between therapeutic and terrifying. In the long run, a few minutes of distress is preferable to a lifetime of irrational fear, though, I'd think.
The key for that spider example (though extreme) would be to not let the person escape the closet until they were calm. I assume Cesar does more flooding than systematic desensitization because he's short on time and trusts his judgment in finding the fine line between therapeutic and terrifying. In the long run, a few minutes of distress is preferable to a lifetime of irrational fear, though, I'd think.Frayed - $75,000
Liveinthemoment - $25,000
Same - $10,000
It's Been Awhile - $10,000
Grindelwald - $10,000
Skywatching - $7,500
Liveinthemoment - $25,000
Same - $10,000
It's Been Awhile - $10,000
Grindelwald - $10,000
Skywatching - $7,500
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Sarah Chase
- Hall of Fame
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- Joined: 18 years ago
And one more thing (:D). A dog can display dominant behavior without being categorized as a completely dominant dog. It's the owners' job to not tolerate the behavior or else it will escalate until the dog *is* truly dominant and therefore, dangerous. The average joe has a dog exhibiting symptoms of dominance, but the behavior can usually be eliminated by a little work on the owners' part.
Frayed - $75,000
Liveinthemoment - $25,000
Same - $10,000
It's Been Awhile - $10,000
Grindelwald - $10,000
Skywatching - $7,500
Liveinthemoment - $25,000
Same - $10,000
It's Been Awhile - $10,000
Grindelwald - $10,000
Skywatching - $7,500
-
Ara Davies
- Hall of Fame
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- Joined: 17 years ago
I am extremely terrified of small, crowded places indoors. If someone forced me to stay in a huge mob of people until I "calmed down", I would either have a nervous breakdown or I'd shut down completely. In addition I would never, never, ever go back to that place again. There are a number of places I can't go to without panicking because of situations like that.
Anyone who saw my near freakout in the cafeteria at the 2003 BC will understand (I did get out of there quickly enough that thoughts of Santa Anita don't send me into a panic, although going into the cafeteria might).
Anyone who saw my near freakout in the cafeteria at the 2003 BC will understand (I did get out of there quickly enough that thoughts of Santa Anita don't send me into a panic, although going into the cafeteria might).
You're not getting a dead button...in fits of rage, John Slotman and Ara Davies and Jolene Danner would literally kill half their barns.
- The Steward
That's my new motto: Don't quit, just shut up.
- Bryan Doolittle
- The Steward
That's my new motto: Don't quit, just shut up.
- Bryan Doolittle
-
Sarah Chase
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- Posts: 2728
- Joined: 18 years ago
So in your case, I would recommend systematic desensitization.Ara Davies wrote: I am extremely terrified of small, crowded places indoors. If someone forced me to stay in a huge mob of people until I "calmed down", I would either have a nervous breakdown or I'd shut down completely. In addition I would never, never, ever go back to that place again. There are a number of places I can't go to without panicking because of situations like that.
Anyone who saw my near freakout in the cafeteria at the 2003 BC will understand (I did get out of there quickly enough that thoughts of Santa Anita don't send me into a panic, although going into the cafeteria might).
But I dunno, you're kind of weird already, sooo ..Frayed - $75,000
Liveinthemoment - $25,000
Same - $10,000
It's Been Awhile - $10,000
Grindelwald - $10,000
Skywatching - $7,500
Liveinthemoment - $25,000
Same - $10,000
It's Been Awhile - $10,000
Grindelwald - $10,000
Skywatching - $7,500
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Ara Davies
- Hall of Fame
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- Joined: 17 years ago
"Kind of"?Sarah Chase wrote: So in your case, I would recommend systematic desensitization.
You're not getting a dead button...in fits of rage, John Slotman and Ara Davies and Jolene Danner would literally kill half their barns.
- The Steward
That's my new motto: Don't quit, just shut up.
- Bryan Doolittle
- The Steward
That's my new motto: Don't quit, just shut up.
- Bryan Doolittle
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Sarah Chase
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- Posts: 2728
- Joined: 18 years ago
So here's an example of what I'm talking about.
1. Dog is reluctant to give up a toy, but does give it up. If the owner ignores this, then ..
2. Dog refuses to give up toy and dog must be approached and toy removed. If owner doesn't go after the dog, then ...
3. Dog growls when owner tries to take toy for whatever reason. If owner backs off now, then ...
4. Dog guards its toys and growls at anyone who tries to take them. Also see: Dogs refusing to get off furniture, growling over its food, etc.
In step four, the dog is clearly dominating the situation. Pet owners need to have the mindset, these are MY toys and I'm allowing my dog to play with MY toys. I can take away one of MY toys whenever I want to or need to. I can stop playtime whenever I want. I can call my dog away from another person or situation. Etc.
The people you see on the show are the ones who let their dogs progress to the point where they're showing unwarranted aggression towards strangers, other dogs, etc. So it's time for an intervention. I don't know how people let things go that far, but they do. *shakes head*
Edit: Ahh stop me! I can't stop posting! *clutches Jarrn*
1. Dog is reluctant to give up a toy, but does give it up. If the owner ignores this, then ..
2. Dog refuses to give up toy and dog must be approached and toy removed. If owner doesn't go after the dog, then ...
3. Dog growls when owner tries to take toy for whatever reason. If owner backs off now, then ...
4. Dog guards its toys and growls at anyone who tries to take them. Also see: Dogs refusing to get off furniture, growling over its food, etc.
In step four, the dog is clearly dominating the situation. Pet owners need to have the mindset, these are MY toys and I'm allowing my dog to play with MY toys. I can take away one of MY toys whenever I want to or need to. I can stop playtime whenever I want. I can call my dog away from another person or situation. Etc.
The people you see on the show are the ones who let their dogs progress to the point where they're showing unwarranted aggression towards strangers, other dogs, etc. So it's time for an intervention. I don't know how people let things go that far, but they do. *shakes head*
Edit: Ahh stop me! I can't stop posting! *clutches Jarrn*
Frayed - $75,000
Liveinthemoment - $25,000
Same - $10,000
It's Been Awhile - $10,000
Grindelwald - $10,000
Skywatching - $7,500
Liveinthemoment - $25,000
Same - $10,000
It's Been Awhile - $10,000
Grindelwald - $10,000
Skywatching - $7,500
-
Dave Shields
- Eclipse Champion
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- Location: SoCal
- Contact:
Thanks for replying Jarn, I was interested in seeing what you had to say about it. I think Sarah did well in replying pretty much how I would have (well not that * part 
).
My basic feeling on this is that dogs are not people. People tend to treat their pets like they are human (yes I am guilty too!) and thats where many behavior problems occur or start. I don't think there is one correct way nor do I think one way will work for all dogs. I know the show is like a "quick fix it" and to really make a dog behave better there needs to be the follow through. Most of what I see on the show is Cesar making the people aware that yes indeed they do have the ability to change their "troubled" dogs. I am of the belief that there is a need to have discipline and a happy dog is one that feels both loved and knows it place. I am pretty picky about what "type" of dog I will want to get (one day), the best dogs I have had experience with are mutts (as opposed to pure breds).
I appreciate you taking the time to explain your views and know that I respect other methods. I enjoy the show because I like animals and I find it entertaining.
). My basic feeling on this is that dogs are not people. People tend to treat their pets like they are human (yes I am guilty too!) and thats where many behavior problems occur or start. I don't think there is one correct way nor do I think one way will work for all dogs. I know the show is like a "quick fix it" and to really make a dog behave better there needs to be the follow through. Most of what I see on the show is Cesar making the people aware that yes indeed they do have the ability to change their "troubled" dogs. I am of the belief that there is a need to have discipline and a happy dog is one that feels both loved and knows it place. I am pretty picky about what "type" of dog I will want to get (one day), the best dogs I have had experience with are mutts (as opposed to pure breds).
I appreciate you taking the time to explain your views and know that I respect other methods. I enjoy the show because I like animals and I find it entertaining.
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Sarah Chase
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