Barbaro Wonderings

Ara Davies · Post by **Ara Davies** » 17 years ago

My post was more directed at the mindset of the big breeders, who have a big political influence on the Jockey Club. Regardless of any facts, that's the way they (collectively) think and thus there's not going to be a change anytime soon.

Kateri Lennox · Post by **Kateri Lennox** » 17 years ago

IsaP wrote: AI is not semen creation, it's simply collection of the normal production and sent somewhere else to be inserted by a human, not the stud.

Semen can be extended, and thus further separated so that you can impregnate multiple mares with one collection. I don't have the numbers handy, but I do know that the standard semen collection is several times more than is required (on average) to impregnate a mare...thus, they add an extender to the semen (to create more volume), and then separate it out to service multiple mares. (This being why many AI stud owners charge by the straw(s), rather than a flat LFG rate...you can, potentially, save money if your mare catches easily and you only need 2 straws vs. 8.)

Tammy Fox · Post by **Tammy Fox** » 17 years ago

I AI'd my grade mare when I bred her to an arabian stallion that was in Florida. I think I spent over $300 on just the breeding part not including the stud fee. The stallion owner sent me two straws and the first time my vet AI'd her she accidentally squirted half the semen on her backside when the tube or whatever you call it came off the syringe. The second day it went fine. The mare ended up conceiving twins and vet had to come out and pinch one, it was touch and go for a couple of weeks after that to see if the remaining embryo survived. I had to give the mare shots over a period of 3 days to keep swelling down and at the first ultra sound the vet thought we might lose the remaining embryo but at the second ultrasound to see if she was still in foal the embryo had taken a nice hold and was doing well.
Also with AI, I had to have the vet out a couple of times to palpate her to see whether she was ready or not to be bred then once we got the okay I had to make the call and the stallion had to go to a collection center and then the semen was overnighted to me so I could breed her.
To me AI was a ton of work to get the mare safely in foal. Would I do it again, I don't know, definintly not with my grade mare who seems to be prone to twinning.
I will never forget the vet checking her and discovering she had three follicles ready to go and another one that was ready the following day. What was surprising is that the vet discovered after she had bred her that two follicles took so I had twins but she thought it would remedy itself(one or both being reabsorbed) but that wasn't the case when she checked her again. I guess my mare just wanted to try and beat the odds of having twins(interestingly enough each one was in a different horn of the uterus which may be why she didn't reabsorb them).
I am sure AI is easier if you have a good teaser horse at your barn or someone that knows how to palpate without calling a vet but for most of us you don't find that at a normal boarding barn.

Martin Pennington · Post by **Martin Pennington** » 17 years ago

See Kateri's post for the answer Isa. Also I suggest you take a look at the various pictures of a clearly ill Barbaro over the past 7 or 8 months Isa and ask yourself "is this really what's best for the horse, or is it for greed and saving face?"

IsaP · Post by **IsaP** » 17 years ago

His head has been up, his eyes have been clear and wide open, he's fighting, not giving up. I again reiterate that Barbaro is calling the shots here. As long as he wants to fight, they're facilitating it AT A HUGE LOSS, monitarily.

In regards to AI, I worked at a farm where we inseminated and collected as ALL of our breeding. I would therefor be an excellent judge of correct AI procedures. Have you ever done AI? Have you ever bred a mare artificially? Have you ever collected? Do you know the sheer frustration of samples going bad easily? I'm not talking about this blindly. It doesn't really extend a book. Besides, there are only so many mares in the world. Registrations happen for a reason. There are other ways to limit the books than taking away the safest way to breed.

And extendors aren't always a good idea. Often, I've seen them break down the efficacy of a semen sample.

(Moderator Edit: No personal attacks, please)

IsaP · Post by **IsaP** » 17 years ago

By the by.. that's 10 years working with Saddlebreds, 5 years on the AI-exclusive breeding farm, 3 years in vet medicine, 20 years of working with animals as a whole and having to know how to read them on a constant basis.
And I'm not even 30 yet.

Laura Ferguson · Post by **Laura Ferguson** » 17 years ago

I'm no expert on AI, so I'll stay out of that part of the conversation.

What I will contribut is that, as far as thoroughbreds are concerned, AI won't happen, I won't go as far to say never, but at a minimum not until something drastically changes. Besides the points already made about the stud fees (you also see somewhat of a backlash now, where the stallion's covered 120 mares, and 80 of those foals end up at Keeneland September. If you have a less than perfect specimen, you get crushed, so there's some incentive to send your mare to a nice stallion who perhaps doesn't have the uberbook), Kentucky makes way too much in boarding fees for those players, many of whom are in the Jockey Club, to ever willing agree to a system that would encourage mares to be boarded in other (and very possibly cheaper) states. It's too much money for them to give up. Boarding fees is also one reason most state-bred programs now require a mare to spend x amount of time (and it's not insignificant) in the state in order to qualify, or to be bred back to another stallion in that same state.

IsaP · Post by **IsaP** » 17 years ago

Thank you, Laura for giving me good and viable reasons why AI won't be used by the JC!

Personally, safe as it may be injury-wise, I'd rather a live cover than AI.. AI is tricky and as you said imperfect.

Eric Nalbone · Post by **Eric Nalbone** » 17 years ago

MODERATOR MESSAGE: Debate the issues surrounding Barbaro, AI, and anything else under the sun all you like, but please refrain from personal attacks, name calling, insulting each other, etc. I've modified this thread to remove the tangential bickering, leaving in what I judge to be reasonable responses to the questions surrounding Barbaro and AI. The thread is unlocked for now to allow people that wish to debate the issues to do so, but if it devolves into sniping at each other again, the thread will be locked.

Susie Rydell · Post by **Susie Rydell** » 17 years ago

IsaP wrote: It's physically impossible for a stud to cover 500 mares and produce babies from those mares.. even with AI. AI is not semen creation, it's simply collection of the normal production and sent somewhere else to be inserted by a human, not the stud.

Honestly.. where do y'all get this information??

There are stallions breeding over 200 mares LIVE COVER. Lion Heart was bred to 233 mares in '05 and had 187 foals (with *31* mares still not reported on, so that number may grow). You don't think it's feasible, if AI was allowed, for a horse to breed 500 mares? Keep in mind, if the stallion isn't shuttling (where they may be breeding another 100+ mares by live cover anyway), they can be collected aaaaaaaall year.

Josh Dutzy · Post by **Josh Dutzy** » 17 years ago

Susie Raisher wrote:
There are stallions breeding over 200 mares LIVE COVER. Lion Heart was bred to 233 mares in '05 and had 187 foals (with *31* mares still not reported on, so that number may grow). You don't think it's feasible, if AI was allowed, for a horse to breed 500 mares? Keep in mind, if the stallion isn't shuttling (where they may be breeding another 100+ mares by live cover anyway), they can be collected aaaaaaaall year.

Co-Sign!!

As far as Barbaro, one shouldn't judge the owners until you are put in that position with a horse of Barbaro's caliber and popularity. The Jackson's situation is a catch-22. Put Barbaro down after the Preakness without trying to save his life and they are looked at as greedy for collecting the insurance money on him (which I blieve is around $25 million). Try to save his life, and after a year it doesn't work out, then they are looked upon as putting the horse through unneccessary stress and suffering. He is at one of the best equine facilities in the country, and I guarantee Barbaro's vet would not hesistate at all to let the Jackson's know that it is the end of the road. But as long as the horse is happy and comfortable its worth a shot....if not for Barbaro himself but for the advancement of equine medicine as a whole.......

Kateri Lennox · Post by **Kateri Lennox** » 17 years ago

IsaP wrote: In regards to AI, I worked at a farm where we inseminated and collected as ALL of our breeding. I would therefor be an excellent judge of correct AI procedures. Have you ever done AI? Have you ever bred a mare artificially? Have you ever collected? Do you know the sheer frustration of samples going bad easily? I'm not talking about this blindly. It doesn't really extend a book. Besides, there are only so many mares in the world. Registrations happen for a reason. There are other ways to limit the books than taking away the safest way to breed.

Yes, I have. At school, they run a small-scale breeding operation, using only AI. We witnessed the collection of the stud, and insemination of the mare. In addition, I worked at a Hackney/Saddlebred show barn, and there were 2 Hackney studs who were regularly collected and bred via AI, as well as a Hackney mare who was superovulated and had multiple embryo transfers done (at age 3, poor thing).

I respect that you have experience/knowledge in this area, but I ask that you acknowledge/respect that other people may as well. Just because your barn(s) didn't choose to use techniques such as extending semen to service more mares doesn't mean that it can't be a viable technique.

And "safest" is a relative term...if you have a mare that is hostile towards studs, or a stud who is hostile towards mares, it is safer to not have them interact at all. Yes, you could argue that based on that, they should not be allowed to be bred, but if that is their only temperament flaw (i.e. they're good in the field with other horses, good with people, have a good attitude about work) and they match up otherwise, then why not?