All Weather Racers

[Jon Xett]

I apologize to folks who breed and race on the All Weather surface but I have a few AW newbie questions:
The following was from another post on equipment and vetting horses:

Re: Equipment Blues
<edited> I had a scary good who ran poorly on the dirt (Effy) and I though it was equipment. Turns out I have a few unintentional A.W. types. I could have spent a lot of time on vetting and/or training to figure her out. <edited>. jX

Then Marzy wrote on 02 Jan 2013.
Wait, Effy wasn't intentional?! Inside that vibrant body was an AW performer waiting to jump out. 8) Something Better was holding out on you.

Since I swear I never bred for or ever intended to race on the AW circuit, how do you ever know a horse prefers the AW surface? I guessed that since Effy galloped scary and was racing so awfully, that the problem was either equipment or surface. I guess that you could give them all a work on AW after a lousy dirt work but that is not always telling. I guess that you could just race them on AW after a lousy dirt start but there might be too many other variables involved to really discern an all weather tilt. But aren't smelly turfy types also capable of AW success? Makes my head ache. Finally, sires like Something Better have a pre-disposition for AW? Who knew? Certainly not I, but I could explain all my not-so-hot SBs. Best, jX

[Madelene Gilbert]

Well, I've been staring at this thread hoping someone else would answer first! So I guess I'll add my thoughts to the mix and see where this goes...

I think the beauty of AW is that we're still getting horses who, for all intents and purposes, don't scream AW potential but totally rock the surface anyway. The SIM wouldn't be nearly so fun if the mystery and discovery of finding those hidden gems weren't there. Congrats on "discovering" Effy; she's a lovely mare who certainly surprised me!

I don't really have any nuggets of wisdom when it comes to managing possible dual surface horses. And to put a rhetorical question out there, is there a "right" way anyway? I think it comes down to personal preference. And, possibly, your gut instinct. Something persuaded you to try Effy on all weather. Be that a feeling, workout, running line or someone sending you PMs with "WHY ISN'T SHE RUNNING ON ALL WEATHER?!?!?!", use that the next time you come across a troublesome horse. And if you're not sure, ask the community! All weather people are pretty smart at recognizing all weather talent/potential.

I'll tell you what I would do though.
If I had a poorly performing racer: 1) Does anything in the pedigree suggest a preference for an alternative surface? If so, then that might be a possibility. Sounds like you already do this. 2) Give a quick workout on alternate surface between starts, as an experiment. If good results, then you know you could try that surface. If bad results, then you know it's not an option. At the worst, postpone starting for an extra week. Note that I'm leaving this open-ended, as I've had all weather bred horses who prefer running on dirt/turf.

If I had a yearling: You're more pressed for time preparing a sprinter to start running, but those kinda suck right now so I won't count them. With milers and routers you can work their entire yearling year and half of their 2yo year. PLENTY of time! You should generally have the equipment figured out by Week 16 (unless they're claimers), so work both surfaces with the desired equipment. I then compare times (see the forum workout stats). Where do those works fall in the grand percentages of times? If there's a definite preference (say top 10% vs. 25%), then it's likely that the horse only wants the one surface. If there's a minuscule difference (both close to 25%), then I'll plan to run them on both. I also usually try to get at least 2 works on both surfaces at the same distance in case one is an oddball time.

I should also include a note that I throw out the first start on the track. Nearly all my 2yos bomb theirs, although that might be my training schedule leading up to it despite positive vet remarks. You might try a dirt start first, since that 2yo schedule opens up weeks before all weather. I can't speak for milers, but the routers tend to get off to a slow start on all weather anyway, so you might choose more dirt starts as a 2yo and see how they like all weather at 3. Might not be a bad idea, since you're breeding for dirt anyway!

As for breeding, I think there's a greater cross over with dirt routers compared to turf or other distances. That was actually one of the reasons why I've expanded my router numbers much faster than sprinters. I actually enjoy finding and trying different dirt-type lines to see how they hold up on AW. And I do think that several typical dirt route sires could potentially throw some AW runners (although we usually don't notice that until well into the stallion's career). I wouldn't say that Something Better was a "multi-surface" sire like, for instance, Magician was. With 436 foals one of them was bound to run on all weather at some point, but only 2 winners compared to 243 dirt wins still says he's a dirt route sire. However, his pedigree doesn't rule out the possibility. Cadeauje is responsible for producing both Kiddo and Lofty Goals, both of whom have some all weather representation (Widdo, Bond James Bond, and possibly Goal Keeper); End of the Line is...well, duh.

[Lisa Strummer]

I am no AW expert by any means, but I look at the pedigree to see if there could be some AW potential. I always thought it was within the realm of possibility for Something Better to have some AW "genes" in him, being by End of the Line and with Effy's dam being out of an A.P. Indy mare, I'm not all that surprised she likes AW.

[Jon Xett]

Madelene and Lisa, thanks for the reply to my questions. I still have questions but it is nice to have a few answers to go along with it. jX

[Madelene Gilbert]

Jon, feel free to post more questions here! Or you can PM me in game anytime.

[Marzy Dotes]

I am no AW expert by any means, but I look at the pedigree to see if there could be some AW potential. I always thought it was within the realm of possibility for Something Better to have some AW "genes" in him, being by End of the Line and with Effy's dam being out of an A.P. Indy mare, I'm not all that surprised she likes AW.

I'm not surprised either. I'd been looking at Something Better for a swile. Picked up a nice SB/Loki Dynasty mare to try out. 8) Looking a generation or so back from "dirt" or turf" routers can as expected give you some good indication. Cadeauje was mentioned and did some AW influence through two of her sons.

Agree w/ much of what was written here, have more to say but i'm a one-handed typist at the moment. Welcome Jon! Any questions you can bring them here.