Stud fees

[Louise Bayou]

I rarely use the expensive types not when Lee Key Shipyard stands everything for 10k, these all normally have very nice pedigrees and produce naturals everytime for me.

I have naturals that can't win a $10k claimer.

Kind of why I don't understand the high end stud fees. It is very hard to earn any sort of money unless they are the top stake horses.

[Regina Moore]

The item I always try to remember is you have 7 potential years of racing your chaser.

Potentially, yes, but reality rarely owns up to potential. Only a small percentage of horses are going to run well enough over seven years to give their owners any logical reason to remain in training near that long. Most horses have to run at least a low 90s fig to have any kind of competitive chance in allowance races, and that eliminates a whole bunch of horses.

Which, in turn, emphasizes what you say about a (dire) need for more claimers.

Over 7 years of racing if you can earn $1,190 per start, or $7,143 per year, you'll pay back the stud fee of a high priced $50k Chasing Stallion.

After 7 years, why would a player be satisfied with merely breaking even on the stud fee? Considering other expenses, the horse ran at a loss. In real life, breaking even is a blessing. In SIM, you aren't going to last long in the game if it's okay with you to break even (unless you already have a huge bank balance built up.) To say nothing of probably not enjoying yourself very much.

The logic of "breaking even on the stud fee" means that all the foal's future earnings go into the pocket of the stallion owner, via the prepaid stud fee. The mare/foal owner nets absolutely nothing from the breeding, except that they're now seven years down the road with nothing to show for it.

Of course, one can argue that the stud fee gave the *opportunity* to possibly, maybe get a nice horse. But that rarely happens. It's always a gamble. So, why pay 50k for that lottery ticket with an A nick, when you can pay 10k for the lottery ticket and get an A nick?

That tends to be the way I approach high stud fees, because they're almost never worth it. (Which, of course, a stallion owner will, by default, blame on the quality of mare, never mind a high nick or high assessment by Miss Anna.)

[Paul Heinrich]

As someone who is still only slowly trying to carve a niche in chasers, I have to agree with AR here. I don't see anything at all wrong with the state of the stud fees, and it's a good thing that there are high-end stallions that are priced a little beyond the common range of 5-15k. In the case of those big 3 outliers - Pigeon Island (30k), Jete (35k) and Leap of Faith (55k) - you're talking about stallions who have been hyped by the Steward, and/or proven fantastic, consistent results. I don't mind that other people find them too expensive to use, and I hope their owners don't, either. As a stallion owner, it's about quality control. I highly doubt that the existence of 4 stallions (of 67 chaser stallions listed in the stud book) above 25k fee is actually "pushing" anyone out of the chasing game.

Further, the line of reasoning that you have to wait so long for them to race is misleading. Look at it this way - once you get past those first 2 seasons with your first chaser foal-crops, you have yearly offerings just like every other division. And instead of racing primarily from 2-5 or 6, like the other divisions, you're racing from 3-7, 8, or 9. There are 15 G1s on the yearly schedule, including 3 high-dollar (over 250k purse) races. Consider that male dirt milers only have 10 G1s on the schedule, male dirt sprinters have 14. They both have more high-dollar races, but then again, dirt milers have 9 stallions listed above 25k, dirt sprinters have 17.

I also agree with AR in that (from what I've seen) there could be a few more low and high level races for steeplechasers. I think this division has probably grown enough in the last 10 seasons to warrant it.

[Laura Ferguson]

I don't know - in chasing, A and A- nicks are fairly easy to come by, and so are naturals, so I don't give them the same weight. I'm actually starting to notice this with thoroughbreds. I used to pretty much be guaranteed wings to scary with an A- nick, now, the scaries are less frequent, and I've gotten more hard to tells from A- nicks out of star broodmares, who have in fact thrown scaries and wows prior to this foal.

I don't mind paying more if I think I can increase my odds of getting the big horse. Eric's had a number of discussions on that in the context of the thoroughbreds that are worth reading. If I've got a top producer, and stallion x for $55,000 increases my chances of getting the big horse (and yes, I get that I may get some duds that don't pay for themselves. The point is if you hit a home run once or twice, it more than makes up for the deadweights). So, I'm willing to pay more if I think that increases my odds. If I've got a so-so mare, then yeah, I'll go to the lower price stallion, because odds are I'm going to end up with a decent foal, not a star, so the stud fee matters more. And frankly, if you've got a proven mare, you can always try to negotiate with the stallion owner. Maybe you'll get a discount, maybe you won't, but if you're bringing quality to the table, rather than throwing some junky mare that you're hoping the stallion will improve, it's at least worth asking.

Just my two cents' worth.

[Marzy Dotes]

I dabble in them breeding wise and since I don't have great mares I go with cheaper and/or dual purpose studs. I did the latter w/ my one nice mare but might go straight chase stud this year and spend more money if I have it if I like those studs' records better.

there are great bargains some of them mentioned, others w/ significant lines. it's a challenge to match up on a limited budget or even in some cases negotiate fees. I take the same approach w/ dirt routers though the purse structure is entirely different/

the wholegallop vs jump test does add a challenge but I think tgat gap isn't as wide as it used to be.

[A.R. Roberts]

The item I always try to remember is you have 7 potential years of racing your chaser.

Potentially, yes, but reality rarely owns up to potential. Only a small percentage of horses are going to run well enough over seven years to give their owners any logical reason to remain in training near that long. Most horses have to run at least a low 90s fig to have any kind of competitive chance in allowance races, and that eliminates a whole bunch of horses.

Which, in turn, emphasizes what you say about a (dire) need for more claimers.

Over 7 years of racing if you can earn $1,190 per start, or $7,143 per year, you'll pay back the stud fee of a high priced $50k Chasing Stallion.

After 7 years, why would a player be satisfied with merely breaking even on the stud fee? Considering other expenses, the horse ran at a loss. In real life, breaking even is a blessing. In SIM, you aren't going to last long in the game if it's okay with you to break even (unless you already have a huge bank balance built up.) To say nothing of probably not enjoying yourself very much.

The logic of "breaking even on the stud fee" means that all the foal's future earnings go into the pocket of the stallion owner, via the prepaid stud fee. The mare/foal owner nets absolutely nothing from the breeding, except that they're now seven years down the road with nothing to show for it.

Of course, one can argue that the stud fee gave the *opportunity* to possibly, maybe get a nice horse. But that rarely happens. It's always a gamble. So, why pay 50k for that lottery ticket with an A nick, when you can pay 10k for the lottery ticket and get an A nick?

That tends to be the way I approach high stud fees, because they're almost never worth it. (Which, of course, a stallion owner will, by default, blame on the quality of mare, never mind a high nick or high assessment by Miss Anna.)

My point was, its such a low break even point. A low level claiming horse can easily earn $15k a year. If you had a horse earning that much over 7 years that is $105k. If you bred that horse for $50k, plus all the extras you still would turn a nice profit on the horse of roughly $35k being conservative. If you had 50 of these types, over 7 years, your profit would be $1.75 mil.

Look, everyone wants the great superstar horse. Math says, you will get one rarely. However, its horses turning small profits every year that make stables sustainable. You may not like them, but you need them.

If Chasing stallions were at $75k or $100k, yeah, gripe all you want. When almost everything decent is under $50k, stud fees are a non-issue.

[A.R. Roberts]

I don't know - in chasing, A and A- nicks are fairly easy to come by, and so are naturals, so I don't give them the same weight. I'm actually starting to notice this with thoroughbreds. I used to pretty much be guaranteed wings to scary with an A- nick, now, the scaries are less frequent, and I've gotten more hard to tells from A- nicks out of star broodmares, who have in fact thrown scaries and wows prior to this foal.

I don't mind paying more if I think I can increase my odds of getting the big horse. Eric's had a number of discussions on that in the context of the thoroughbreds that are worth reading. If I've got a top producer, and stallion x for $55,000 increases my chances of getting the big horse (and yes, I get that I may get some duds that don't pay for themselves. The point is if you hit a home run once or twice, it more than makes up for the deadweights). So, I'm willing to pay more if I think that increases my odds. If I've got a so-so mare, then yeah, I'll go to the lower price stallion, because odds are I'm going to end up with a decent foal, not a star, so the stud fee matters more. And frankly, if you've got a proven mare, you can always try to negotiate with the stallion owner. Maybe you'll get a discount, maybe you won't, but if you're bringing quality to the table, rather than throwing some junky mare that you're hoping the stallion will improve, it's at least worth asking.

Just my two cents' worth.

You are spot on here Laura. A and A- nicks and Naturals are too far common. As stated, I have naturals in my barn that might never break their maiden.

Anyone saying they can pay a $10k stud fee to get an A nick over the $35k stud fee is just not looking at the entire picture.

Also as you stated, many owners of big name stallions are always willing to negotiate. I know I am always looking to make deals. I'll deal with anyone, at any time.

[Marzy Dotes]

Look, everyone wants the great superstar horse. Math says, you will get one rarely. However, its horses turning small profits every year that make stable sustainable. You may not like them, but you need them.

Yep. I'm enjoying my research and lots of nice ones on the lower side. I do that w/ mixers a lot too. gotten enough decent or better results to keep at it esp in a season like thisone w/ lower income coming into spend on breeding.

[Chani Ruzzo]

A and A- nicks and Naturals are too far common. As stated, I have naturals in my barn that might never break their maiden.

I have 3 natural geldings for sale at $1.. Two have been up for almost a full SIM season. One has been up for sale and I have made 27k and change running him, and yet no one wants him, the other made 8k, same deal. Both have won once or twice, but they are paying their shipping and stabling fees so I don't really care so long as they allow me to break even.

In summary I spent total of maybe 30-40k on the 3 horses that are naturals and running in claimers - I'm just waiting on people to take them off my hands.