A thought on hypos and stallion/mare quality

[J.P Dogood]

I know none of us actually know the inner workings of this game but I want peoples opinions on hypomating specific mares to studs.

It seems like mares have a range based on BM ratings. Blue hens typically A’s or A- and if you’re lucky/depending on the breed A+. My stars almost always pump out A- and formidables B+ with the random A- here or there. So on and so forth.

Now stallions have a similar window. The best stallions get A+ and A’s with second tier A- and then pretty much B+ from that point on.

My thought here is once you know your BMs window, does the specific stallion even matter at that point? To give an example my best mare is Meru. G1 winner blue hen. Her hypo’s are almost always A- to any stallion worth its salt. I’m never going to unlock a great cross from a hypo alone right? Like if I cross her with Crayon (for example cause he’s not an S tier stallion) and their pedigrees love each other I’m not going to get an A or A+ because Crayons window is in that A- B+ range right?

I hope this makes sense. Like I said once you get an idea for the actual quality of your BM do hypo’s even matter anymore if you’re sending them to the best stallions?

[Sara Julin]

I don't know if this answers your question, but it is possible to get very nice horses out of lower tier horses with B+ hypos.
Kinetic Kingdom for example, https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1309080 He was a B+ hypo between my mare and Achievement. The mare mostly hypos B+ with some occasional A-. But Kinetic Kingdom was a B+ hypo.

(And Crayon is up in straigh A hypos with some mares, just a little trivia.)

[J.P Dogood]

Hahah I definitely wasn’t crapping on crayon he was just the first that popped into my head I swear!! And I know it’s possible what I’m asking is moreso you’re never going to secretly unlock the best stallion for your mare through hypo’s. Meru was a cross that should’ve been trash. Sheru was a super disappointing stallion and her dam ran almost 50 times without a win but yet that cross gave me a freak, a stakes so they clearly worked together.

My question is moreso if I hypo’d that dam to Sheru it SHOULD be an A+ based on what I got but would the game have given me a B+ solely cause she was formidable and that’s what they typically get?

[Sara Julin]

Hahah I definitely wasn’t crapping on crayon he was just the first that popped into my head I swear!! And I know it’s possible what I’m asking is moreso you’re never going to secretly unlock the best stallion for your mare through hypo’s. Meru was a cross that should’ve been trash. Sheru was a super disappointing stallion and her dam ran almost 50 times without a win but yet that cross gave me a freak, a stakes so they clearly worked together.

My question is moreso if I hypo’d that dam to Sheru it SHOULD be an A+ based on what I got but would the game have given me a B+ solely cause she was formidable and that’s what they typically get?

No worries, I didn't take it that way ^^ It was nice you mentioned Crayon out of all the DR studs out there

[Shannon Hunt]

My understanding is that hypos are sort of a basic calculation weighing the general ability of the two horses together, but not how well their individual characteristics would complement each other. The top-hypoing stallion in a division seems to get the top hypo grade for every mare in that division, because he has the highest number. But he might not be the best match for every mare in the division, if the distance preferences clash, the pedigrees don't match up well, whatever other types of stats go into a horse that we don't necessarily see.

What I'd like to learn more about is how bloodstock agent comments are calculated, since those don't always line up with hypos at all. I've had blue hens that hypo worse than formidable mares (I think one was even worse than a somewhat nice unpredictable I compared with) in the same division.

[Ma Springs]

I believe you are right. In my half-newbie mind every mare and stallion has a breeding score, and the combination of those will add up to fall in a range "called" A or A-. A good cross factors in a lot of other qualities that will determine if the bloodlines match, but the hypo won't tell anything about that quality.

Once I know how a mares hypos and a particular stallion, I feel no need to cross hypo everything in my barn.

(The one exception might be routers..? I'm not sure if a hypo might be different for 1 1/4 compared to 2 miles? Maybe...)

And I believe the bloodstock agent will give you the score for the mare, whereas the hypo weighs in the three generations. But what do I know...

[Stormy Peak]

Don't forget there is always a random slide factored in.

Me, If I like what I see on the back pedigree generations that influence the foal, I go for it. Sometimes I just love the stallion line up in the 3rd generation, or the overall quality of the broodmares. And, so even if the mare is a formidable and only gets a B+ hypo, I will send her to a high priced stallion. And, hope for a nice slide too.

I just had a mare who died while foaling today. Her hypoes with great stallions was almost half B+ and half A-

With her A- hypoes,
She had a freak with Summerland, and 2 stakes with Improvisational and Night's Quiet. But she also had an allowance with Brilliance, and with Time Bomb.
Time To Be Upfront

Her last foal was by my own stallion Wolfman Jack, because she did hypo A- with him, but too, I love the 3rd generation stallion line up...Kitasan Black, Brilliance, Two Toned, and Andre.

In the 2nd generation, Deputy Governor, and Time Limit.
un-named colt

Wolfman Jack was an SC winner and from my Foremost line of mares...as is Time To Be Upfront.
So, based up on the stallion line up, I chose a colt, rather than a filly for her last foal. I knew she had a good chance of dying, as she was 14.

So again, an A- hypo, nice breeding, and just hoping for a good slide : )
But I also see that as you stated, many blue hens get a rare B+ hypo and most get A- to A {beginning to think A+ with turf routers is a myth}
And as mentioned Formidable and Stars, see more B+ with A- and a rare A hypo.

I have seen a few blue hens get a lot of B+ ratings, so that at least is, in my opinion, a sign to not get too excited about her foals.

Stormy

[Gwen Morse]

I hope this makes sense. Like I said once you get an idea for the actual quality of your BM do hypo’s even matter anymore if you’re sending them to the best stallions?

I would say "no". I have tried to get more picky and start using stallions that give me (at least) A- nicks, but I can't afford that with all my formidables. So I've done a lot of nicking to see what happens with different stallions.

With a herd of formidable mares, there can be a lot of variation with the same group of stallions (A/A-, A-/B+, B+ all, B+/B).

I've seen stallions that regularly nick "below" other stallions and then do better with one particular mare. I see this more with cheaper stallions/home studs. So, stallions Y and Z usually both nick B+ to a decent formidable. Y still gets a B+ to some mares where Z gets a flat B. So, usually, you'd think Y is the better stallion of the two (by a decimal point or two). Sometimes, I see a mare where those nicks are reversed - so Y gets a flat B and Z gets a B+. When I see that, I'll cross the mare with Z.

Other than that edge case, I just use nicks with a test group of stallions to judge the relative quality of the mare and leave it at that.

[Ma Springs]

So, usually, you'd think Y is the better stallion of the two (by a decimal point or two). Sometimes, I see a mare where those nicks are reversed - so Y gets a flat B and Z gets a B+.

Do you by any chance remember what division (and stallions, very interesting) this happened in? Please tell me it's sprinters or routers! If it's a miler I would need to adjust my map.

[Polk Buffalo]

I remember that indominus and some dirt router stallion acted like that. Some mare did A- with Indominus and not the other. Some mare did A- with the other and not indominus.
I thought it hade to do with dirtmiler ability. Will try to find out what stallion I mean. Cant remember now.

[Cleo Patra]

Hypos are way below pedigree and random slide. The random slide is a HUGE factor. Have a look at this mare and her progeny: Alsotravelsintime
Obviously the Together nick was a real hit for her. But of the two daughters who were the most successful on the track, one couldn’t produce a winner if you gave them a furlong headstart while the other produced 2 millionaires.

So really you need to go to the same stallion multiple times before you know if he’s truly a great cross with a mare or just a slide fluke.

Additionally, some sire lines (sometimes completely inexplicably) absolutely suck once they hit the second and third generation. Burning Up a Sun (Shahir'ra brother by Gojira) is an example of a sire who should have been wildly successful and yet doesn’t have a millionaire from his kids or grandkids.

[Kelly Haggerty]

As someone that does a LOT of hypos between my own mares and all the layaway mares I agree with Gwen. There are differences and the hypo is helpful, but it isn't the only part of the puzzle. It isn't a real "nick", and you still need to research for those somewhat. I have a mare that is an A to almost every stallion in the TR division, even stallions that are A- with all my other hens. I've seen mares be a B+ to a leading stallion, but A- elsewhere. And, nicking really matters. I hit gold with the CA Chrome / WOGS nick with multiple stakes and freaks and a SC winner from just a few matings, many of which were formidable mares.

[Todd A. Pletcher]

So I am totally confused, if you tell me that, for example, in Turf Sprinters, a Hypo A is not important, and with a Hypo B+ you can have better results based on pedigree and other things, then I would say in my humble opinion that the Hypos then what are they for? It is supposed that if I do a hypo and it gives me B+ and another gives me A, I will choose A a thousand times or so I thought but now you tell me that this is not important then I have really lost all the desire to keep playing this game because if you can't trust the hypos you will trust

[J.P Dogood]

I think hypo’s still have value I’m just genuinely curious if the game would alert you if you found a “golden ticket” cross.

To make it easier here’s the dam I was talking about https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.php?HorseID=733002

I can’t tell you why I bought her. Only has one hypo and it’s a B+ to DMB. So if she only got a B+ to him she MAYBE would have got that to Sheru. But her 4 foals with Sheru were freak, stakes, allowance (who ran like crap but still), and solid. I think most of us would consider that an A or A+ cross in reality. So the game clearly likes that cross, if I could go back in time and hypo that dam to Sheru do we think the game would give it a high hypo or still give it a B/B+ just because that should be the window of a likely formidable mare and bad stallion

[Tammy Stawicki]

I've been playing around a bit with hypos a bit more than normal in the last few years. I still don't do a HUGE amount, but here are my observations

To me it seems if you stay within a division nicking generally works as the original posts suggests. A mare has a certain quality level, the stallion has a certain quality level and those two combined give you your nick more so than how the mare and stallion interact. So I have some mares that always nick A or A-. And there are some stallions when nicked to those sorts of mares will always give the A nick and others that will always give the A-. Where the nicking seems to be giving information about how well a mare and stallion fits is when you are looking across divisions.

So for example, I have two paint middle distance sires. Jacinth and Komati. I've nicked 11 paint middle-distance mares to both of them. In every case they either both have an A+ nick with the mare or Jacinth has an A+ and Komati has an A. I've yet to find a middle-distance mare where Komati gets an A+ and Jacinth an A. So my interpretation is Jacinth has a lightly higher quality score going into the nick than Komati, if it was looking at how good the horse's individual bloodlines lined up I would not expect Jacinth to be that consistently the higher nicker. Now Komati was a "versatile" horse, and when I nick them to spinters things do get interesting. There Komati will usually get an A, but Jacinth usually drops down to B+. So clearly that is taking into consideration the fit of the sprinter mare with the stallion, presumably Jacinth is pure middle distance so even if he is better on the quality score he's not a good fit for a sprint mare, whereas Komati being more versatile is. Now interestingly I have one sprint mare that nicks A+ with Jacinth and A with Komati. While I never tested if she was versatil while running my guess is she is, so she is nicking with middle distance ability and thus shows the middle distance pattern with Jacinth being the better sire.

So that was overly rambly which is to say I don't think within a division nick grades will tell you which is the best match (though it is possible that in divisions like thoroughbred routers where there is a range of distances a horse can run maybe there is some information there), but I do think they give you meaningful matching information if you want to play with breeding horses across divisions.