Where are all the full siblings?!

[Hannah Sandiford]

This maybe a silly newbie question... but having ventured into breeding my first proper crop of foals this year I have been doing a lot of research into breeding practises/theories and studying the broodmare bands and youngstock being produced by the bigger, more established players in the game (I am a mere junior player with no where near the numbers of them, but I figured this would be a good strategy to learn more).

One thing that really stuck out to me was that it seems really rare for mares to be bred back to the same stallion- there are mares that have produced a truly phenomenal horse (I'm talking winner of a SC or TC race, award winner etc) but there will often never be a full sibling produced (even if the sire is still available and not pensioned). Why is this? If you've found a cross that has had spectacular results and produced one of the best horses in the world why is it so seldom repeated in favour of a totally unknown (apart from hypo) cross?

I only ask as, coming from a 'real horse' background where full siblings are a fairly common occurrence when a cross has delivered the goods, this seems odd. The main reason you would see real life top mares being bred to different stallions to the one that produced their best offspring is because the owner is breeding to sell as a yearling and wants to use a more commercial stallion or because her best offspring may have been talented but had a conformation/physical issue that they don’t want to repeat (even the best bred yearling can fail to meet a good price as a yearling if it has a major physical flaw). These two factors don’t really apply in the sim there isn’t anywhere near as much of a ‘pre-gallop’ yearling sales industry as there is in real life (aside from stew breds), and conformation is not a feature in the game.

I feel like I'm missing something!

[Lily Wilkins]

I can't speak for everyone else, but my personal philosophy is this: I would rather produce a dud and go "dang, that cross didn't work" than breed a full sibling to a Steward's Cup winner and feel like throwing my laptop when it gallops "Claimer"
There are instances of epic full siblings in the game, but they are the exception more than the rule... Usually you have the world-beater, and then their freeloading full sibling that doesn't do much
The game also has niche crosses, and the only way to discover those is through experimentation and variety.

[Autumn Blackmill]

Might also be limited gene pools in game. Breeding back to the same stud multiple times doesn't diversify your lines very much, which could be of concern later down the road.

[Tim Matthews]

It used to be more common - Dave Shields did a lot of this to great effect (sorry if we're not supposed to talk about him anymore). I think it's probably a really good move, and I've found success with it myself. But I will echo the others in this thread on why there's a lot of hesitation.

[Roger Carlo]

I tried same breeding several time. After getting my first SC Winner

Ginoboli
https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1501980

Who was a freak.
https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1202726

I’m not very smart. So tried it a few more times and best I got was an Allowance. Then Alien Lasers finally pensioned. Then used different stud and got a Stakes galloper.

[Diane Townsend]

When I get a good colt I often go back to the well the next year and breed a filly, in hopes of getting a good future broodmare, it doesn't always work but here is one of the cases where it did. Both are G1 winners:
https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1170286

then
https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1187522
She is a BH and her daughter has given me a freak

[Laura Ferguson]

I bred more full siblings when I first started - the problem was that when it came time to breed them, you were essentially breeding the same pedigree over and over again, which got boring. So, I try to use different stallions more for diversity than anything else. I will still go back to a particular stallion on occasion, if I really love the cross, but I try to minimize that just from that standpoint.

[Carolyn Eaton]

The full siblings to Double Dog Dare Ya are: "Chameleon" - allowance and "Don't Call Me Yellow" - productive- lightening rarely strikes twice

[Meghan Kingsley]

As the SIM's most pathetic breeder, I thought I could 'hedge my bets' a bit and repeat breedings on my best owned or leased mares that produced Stakes or Freak offspring for other people. Nope. Most turned out solid or claimers. Is there something in the game where a match only works once? Or am I just pathetic and can do the same breeding as other people and get duds? The world may never know.

[Ash Tarasin]

I often return to a combination that has previously worked. Sometimes the sibling is better, sometimes it's worse. I think it has more to do with the span of the normal distribution curve than anything else.

Having said that, I generally don't breed siblings of different gender from the same combination more than once. I have done a triple repeat a small handful of times when the mare simply didn't seem to appreciate any other sire.

I have a sibling pair racing at the moment, where both are somewhat decent.

Ryhka (G2 - G3 -winner) and Niyyah (Long Island Acorn winner)

[Ronnie Dee]

As the SIM's most pathetic breeder, I thought I could 'hedge my bets' a bit and repeat breedings on my best owned or leased mares that produced Stakes or Freak offspring for other people. Nope. Most turned out solid or claimers. Is there something in the game where a match only works once? Or am I just pathetic and can do the same breeding as other people and get duds? The world may never know.

This is a good example of Regression to the Mean (if one sample of a random variable is extreme, the next sampling of the same random variable is likely to be closer to its mean.) Even though I am well aware of this phenomenon, I still have a tendency to try a stallion again if the mare produced an excellent offspring by this stallion. Most of the time, the first offspring is much better than the second offspring by the same stallion.

[Rochelle Bos]

I have often tried the same stud more than once, especially if it’s a “proven” good sireline cross. There is always a chance the perfect pairing will throw a claimer, so if everything points at the cross should work, I’ll give it another go. Similarly if I get an allowance galloper I may try for a higher gallop. Also if I get a freaky stakes or a freak from a cross I will also likely try it again but change gender.

I can’t think of any examples off the top of my head where it worked out, but I’ll have a peek

[Rochelle Bos]

(Sorry for double post…and for no links, I’m on mobile and don’t have the spoons for it atm)

More in Love I tried her back to a different Reach for the Moon stud after Dash and got Calvary and they are her two best foals

Elphie and Beau had Law of Surprise (Allowance), Fieyro (Freak), Wicca (Stakes)

I See You has Blew By You and Tale As Old As Time

Isabelle has Still Into You and Kitty

Twisted Sister has Monsieur and Madame (sire/grandsire)

[John Smith]

Ive gone back too much same stud building full sibs to stakes... no results. In fact my stakes dont really run like stakes...so maybe shouldn't have anyway on just the gallop...

What I don't understand from these bigger breeders is standing stallions in locations with little or no state bred racing.

[Mary Whalen]

I usually only repeat breeding if it was the case of the first foal was a good colt and choose filly since if she sucks on the track maybe she'd be a good broodmare. Or if I leased the mare out and that person got a good foal I'll repeat again with a filly since could end up with a good broodmare. Otherwise I'd rather maintain diversity in my barn by choosing different sires.