Has anyone

[Kelly Haggerty]

Has anyone had a stallion that wasn’t versatile as a racer hypo/produce well in more than one division as a sire? I’m try to figure out if racing and breeding versatility are separate or always the same. Thanks.

[Durzo Blint]

Not a stallion, but I have this mare, Gentleheart, who ran best as a miler (races and workout times), but her hypo's were not good with the DM sires and much better with the DR (A with DMB, VoF, Christopher Robin, It Is Done and B+ with VoG and Holland Road) - not sure if that helps with what you are looking for, but just an example

[Shannon Hunt]

I'm not immediately thinking of a stallion either, but I have an example like Durzo's in this mare who is an AWR stakes winner I bought to try to upgrade my AWR string, with the hope that she might have some AWM ability as well. Noticed she had thoroughly mediocre hypos for a hen (B+ to Avacas, C+ to Hot Dog so definitely not AWM lol), played around a bit and turns out she gets flat A hypos in DM, so switched divisions on her and have a stakes LB by Holland Road.

Granted, she never ran DM so I can't say if she would have been versatile on the track as well.

[Gwen Morse]

Racing and breeding versatility are different but I only have mares.

This might be easiest to replicate in your own barn with chasing (lots of stallions have at least a little chasing). Try all your fillies over jumps and then BSA on retirement.

Some will have been different career jumpers with a BSA that they can produce chasing foals. I'm not saying use them to breed chasers but you can see no jumping race ability yes jumping breeding ability.

[Eric Nalbone]

This is a bit dated, but sure. Achievement was very much a short router, who could stretch to 10f, but sired plenty of milers. Spartan was a similar short router, and got milers, AW horses, etc.

The problem with versatility is there's no incentive unless a horse is an absolute FREAK that has just done all it can do to go change it up. Just keep winning races! So a lot of these 'versatile' sires never get to show it, because why in the ever-loving-name-of-god would I take a horse that wins the Baltimore Crown and like... run it at a mile on the AW? That'd be so dumb. So you just don't see it. They're still there.

My favorite stallion hack, such that they exist, is milers sired by short routers out of true miler fillies. I'm talking horses like Edict, Just Victory, Spartan, etc. If they win the Baltimore Crown or Seek Thrills Stakes, good chance they'll sire great 1) milers 2) fillies [because the premier races are just a tad shorter]

[Shannon Hunt]

This is a bit dated, but sure. Achievement was very much a short router, who could stretch to 10f, but sired plenty of milers. Spartan was a similar short router, and got milers, AW horses, etc.

The problem with versatility is there's no incentive unless a horse is an absolute FREAK that has just done all it can do to go change it up. Just keep winning races! So a lot of these 'versatile' sires never get to show it, because why in the ever-loving-name-of-god would I take a horse that wins the Baltimore Crown and like... run it at a mile on the AW? That'd be so dumb. So you just don't see it. They're still there.

My favorite stallion hack, such that they exist, is milers sired by short routers out of true miler fillies. I'm talking horses like Edict, Just Victory, Spartan, etc. If they win the Baltimore Crown or Seek Thrills Stakes, good chance they'll sire great 1) milers 2) fillies [because the premier races are just a tad shorter]

You might be a little out of the loop, I feel like we've seen quite a few colts have very versatile careers in the past few seasons. Marque had G1 wins in three divisions, Marowak swapped between turf and synthetic mile with ease, Mattawan was successful on the track both TS and AWS. Beautyinthesorrow picked up six-figure checks in five different divisions I think? And five-figure checks in a couple others. I don't think any of those horses ran out of things to do in a division, and I do think that playing with versatility is an incentive in itself just because it's fun. "Variety is the spice of life", or so they say. I've had several allowance-type horses run TS or TM, or DM or DR, or DS or AWS, just depending on what the competition and ship distances looked like.

[Andrew Chillin]

Lazy dog, avenger, and kryptonite all won turf g1s.

[Andrew Chillin]

Taken by a Lady was “versatile” but his AWR was not on par with turf in workouts but once he retired he hypoed nice with awr mares. I don’t have anything else to prove that but I would say there’s a difference in race and breed abilities.

Then you have to wade through the bullshot of the game. Routers are better than milers dirt is better than turf and also special races too. Canadian triple, and turf triple, to name a few. Take spatula who is a strong route pedigree and he was faster than all of the milers. So was he really a miler versatile or just better. Kryptonite has no turf ability and dominated a g1 with speed and superior routing ability. Marque won g1s in TR, Awr and AM but in terms of hypos they rank in that order with AM being well below par for worth of breeding but his speed and raw ability just shot on them wimpy milers. Turf>aw.

[Eric Nalbone]

This is a bit dated, but sure. Achievement was very much a short router, who could stretch to 10f, but sired plenty of milers. Spartan was a similar short router, and got milers, AW horses, etc.

The problem with versatility is there's no incentive unless a horse is an absolute FREAK that has just done all it can do to go change it up. Just keep winning races! So a lot of these 'versatile' sires never get to show it, because why in the ever-loving-name-of-god would I take a horse that wins the Baltimore Crown and like... run it at a mile on the AW? That'd be so dumb. So you just don't see it. They're still there.

My favorite stallion hack, such that they exist, is milers sired by short routers out of true miler fillies. I'm talking horses like Edict, Just Victory, Spartan, etc. If they win the Baltimore Crown or Seek Thrills Stakes, good chance they'll sire great 1) milers 2) fillies [because the premier races are just a tad shorter]

You might be a little out of the loop, I feel like we've seen quite a few colts have very versatile careers in the past few seasons. Marque had G1 wins in three divisions, Marowak swapped between turf and synthetic mile with ease, Mattawan was successful on the track both TS and AWS. Beautyinthesorrow picked up six-figure checks in five different divisions I think? And five-figure checks in a couple others. I don't think any of those horses ran out of things to do in a division, and I do think that playing with versatility is an incentive in itself just because it's fun. "Variety is the spice of life", or so they say. I've had several allowance-type horses run TS or TM, or DM or DR, or DS or AWS, just depending on what the competition and ship distances looked like.

Sure, but the reason I pulled older examples was to show success as a stallion at some level. Neither Achievement or Spartan were superhorses as stallions but both were quite useful, and demonstrated almost no versatility as racehorses - they just wanted to go a short route, though if I sent them a mile I suppose they both probably would have done it well (Dynamite also fits this category, getting Marvel). I'm trying to find horses that *aren't* versatile and *did* successfully sire outside their demonstrated division, not ones that were versatile already (Beautyinthesorrow fits this category). So yes - point well taken that there are maybe more diversely campaigned horses than I gave credit for while just kind of categorically ruling it out, they're not an adequate answer to a query of 'nonversatile racehorse that IS a versatile stallion', so they do zero to help answer the original question (demonstrated racing versatility, thus not in the sample group).

Then we need them to actually be mildly successful stallions to at least demonstrate versatility with like... winners. Of the group you named, Marowak is too early to tell for sure but isn't looking promising in any division really, and Marque has one stakes winner, zero freak gallopers, and from 60 horses of reasonable age (excluding foals, yearlings, 2yos that cant have possibly run long enough yet just to be fair to him, but if his 43 foal first crop wasn't gonna be his best, I dunno what would change his fortunes). They might have one jump up and randomly be a freak, but nothing in their numbers suggests they're useful, so even if they're also diverse they're going to be diversely bad, which is ... unhelpful. No offense to either of them or their owners, it just happens a lot and it's hard to find a good stallion, but sometimes some of these versatile horses that are jack of all trades just don't have anything special enough about them as a sire to make them useful at all - may as well try to get a horse who is specifically good at something.

All that said - your mileage may vary, but I've had my best breeding and results targeting a specific outcome and hopefully getting it, not trying to generically average across divisions for versatility. If they can cross a division line, great, but it's almost uniformly more profitable to run a horse doing what they're best at than something they're not so good at!

[Kelly Haggerty]

Thanks for all the replies. I will hypo my guys when they retire and see. Both have RL pedigrees but are not versatile as runners; however, I did hear from the Entry Clerk that racing and breeding versatility can be different, so that is something. One has the shed comment and is a SB "TM" at present and the other has the LC comment but one of those anything RL pedigrees and I am hoping he might make a "barn quality" sire for my DM girls.