Breeding with Versatility (LONG - wall of text)

[Gwen Morse]

I don't have any AW TBs..maybe I should get some...although in my opine, there should just be more versatility into this division from turf dirt runners or vice versa.

John, I've noticed you mention a few times on the forums that you're intrigued by the idea of versatility breeding to access AW lines in your broodmares.

So, I said to myself "Self, why don't we explain versatility breeding to John, and make it a forum post so it can benefit other people too?" So here we are.

First off, I'm not an expert by any means - more experienced people who are masters of versatility please don't come after me with torches and pitchforks.

Second of all, I'm going to explain versatile AW breeding by making some references to crossing *chasing* into your TB lines. This is just so I can explain how versatility works and provide examples. I don't know anything about AW pedigrees. I've been working on breeding chasing into my flat turf lines, and to a lesser extent breeding TM+TR racers.

The basic concept of versatility is that some horses have breeding (and racing) numbers in divisions other than their main racing division. A horse might be a turf sprinter, but also have breeding numbers in all weather sprinting. Or they might be a turf router who has breeding numbers in steeplechasing.

A good starting point for lines like this is the holiday fillies and mares the Steward puts up for auction when she adds a new GP stallion, or when a popular real stallion is retired to stud or passes away. These ladies don't tend to produce a lot of amazing stakes runners, but they're usually very very versatile. Since they're not amazing broodmares, they tend to be affordable in sale or lease auctions.

You can assess mare versatility by using hypos. Ask around on the forums (or crack open the stud book), and find a high-hypoing stallion in the division you're looking for. **For this step, your hope is to find stallions that aren't themselves versatile.** If you're looking for an AWR stallion, you want a specialist that is 'only' AWR. This is because you're using the hypos to pinpoint the mares you have that are hiding AWR numbers.

In your case, you want at least one each of AWS, AWM, and AWR stallions. Buy some Game Points, hypo the specialist test stallions to your girls, and make notes. IMO (and this is very subjective) no more than one letter grade below the mare's top hypo is a good hypo for versatility at this stage. I also won't go lower than B+. So, if the mare hypos flat A in her usual division, you want her to have at least an A- hypo in the versatile division. If she's an A- in her usual division, then at least a B+ in the versatile division. If she's a B+ in her usual division, she's should also be a B+ in the versatile division.

Keep an eye on your mares while you're doing all these crosses, and make note of any stallion names that repeatedly come up in both the stallion and mare pedigrees (if you're lucky there will be some bold names from linebreeding to grab your attention). When I started breeding versatile chasers, I noticed that Galileo was showing up in a lot of these pedigrees. After a while a light bulb lit up and I was like "Oh, I bet Galileo is a source of chasing in the sim". You should pick up on source stallions for your preferred AW divisions while you're hypoing your mares.

These source stallions will be useful for finding other mares that might be a little low on the hypo side but are hiding versatile lines. Their absence in a pedigree helps you to identify 'outcross' stallions that give you the breeding numbers you want without getting all inbred.

Once you've narrowed down which mares you think are most likely to have AW breeding numbers, you breed each one to versatile stallions with a lot of (successful) racers in both the mare's usual division, and the AW division she hypos best in. I use "real" stallions (either player-owned or Steward-owned) in these versatile projects, but you can look for player-bred stallions also.

I breed fillies (as they'll be future broodmares). The first versatile cross tends to be kinda meh. At this point the filly often can't race in the second/versatile division. That's okay - they just need to be good enough for their dam's usual division. You race the filly as usual, and retire her. BSA (if you do that) and hypo her. You want her to have your usual preferred hypos for the AW division at this point -> no compromising on one grade below.

You have two options with your new broodmare.
* You can breed her to another versatile stallion - in which case her foal "should" be able to race in both the original division and the new AW division (as long as you get a decent gallop).
* You can breed her to a specialist stallion in the AW division. If you use a specialist you should treat the foals as AW-only, although you can technically cross versatility back into later generations.

**In general** a versatile racer will not do as well as a specialist. The benefit to a versatile racer is that they can make money in more than one division. They become a sort of gateway horse that lets you play around in a second division without chasing down a whole division's worth of new broodmares.

However, as always, breeding is very random and you can get a lucky slider result that gives you an excellent versatile horse, or an unlucky parade of foals that can't run in any division.

[Andrew James]

Enjoyable read with lots of great points. Thanks for sharing!

[John Smith]

Thanks - I may start playing with this, I will need another rationalization for my my out of control breeding addiction next season or the paltry mares I have left. This seems like a good one!

[Madelene Gilbert]

FWIW, at least for routers - I would look for AW/Turf versatility instead of AW/Dirt versatility. In the early days of AW pedigrees, it used to be the opposite, but with the influx of RL sires it seems the Turf lines have won out. Not saying you *can't* cross with Dirt, but it'll be significantly harder and likely more expensive if you consider the average DR stud fee.

Gwen mentioned Galileo, but I think Deep Impact is the biggest versatile influence in modern and recent past AWR pedigrees. I recommend starting there.

Edit: I don't know if you're going to find an AWR stud currently standing who has "pure" AW ability since all of them have at least 1 RL sire somewhere in their pedigree, and as you mentioned they're most likely to be versatile. The only sire currently I could see with no RL sire is Sunrise Inthe Dawn, but I wouldn't consider him a top sire. In other words, I wouldn't spend GPs to hypo him just because he's a "specialist".

[Gwen Morse]

Edit: I don't know if you're going to find an AWR stud currently standing who has "pure" AW ability since all of them have at least 1 RL sire somewhere in their pedigree, and as you mentioned they're most likely to be versatile. The only sire currently I could see with no RL sire is Sunrise Inthe Dawn, but I wouldn't consider him a top sire. In other words, I wouldn't spend GPs to hypo him just because he's a "specialist".

Thanks for this information. Finding pure AW probably isn't possible but there may be some decent sires that have real stallions a little further back in the pedigree (3rd or 4th gens?)

As I said it's a little easier with testing chasers as they get their own set of hypos. I'm presenting the theory, players have to find their own horses to put it into practice!

[Wc Lee]

Gwen gives good tips on breeding versatile horses.

I'll add my two cents.

After I have figured out the equipment for my yearlings, I workout the horse through the other surfaces and distances to see if the horse is versatile.

I learned this from Andrew Chillin.

I leased his horse, Rainbow Contrail. I had run Rainbow Contrail exclusively as an AW Sprinter and she did fine. Andrew saw what I was doing and suggested I run Rainbow Contrail as a miler and also on a turf surface. I did that and even though Rainbow Contrail was not great as a AW Miler, Turf Miler or Turf Sprinter, she still earned purse money in the other 3 divisions. Plus, it was fun running her on a different surface and at a different distance every other week.

Andrew let me bred Rainbow Contrail's first foal and I sent her to Lloyd's Keeping (AW Sprinter). I have run the foal, Keep the Rainbow, on both AW and Turf surfaces and she has done pretty well.

Now, I always workout all my yearlings on different surfaces and distances. It does not cost anything and you never know what you might find.

[J.P Dogood]

In my younger sim days I tried VERY HARD to breed versatility. I hunted down mares that had any and all connection to magician, trahan, James Bond, RL lines etc. I essentially threw one whole sim year away doing this because I had so many horses who were bred for versatility and couldn’t run on any surface.

I’ve had some success which you can see…isn’t much.
https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1471260
https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1328309
https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1742310

And then there’s this guy who is a DR stakes LB who looks pretty fast. Has AWR pedigree and I very much doubt he’d get higher than a 60 speed figure on synthetic.
https://www.simhorseracing.com/horse.ph ... ID=1792454

I guess my point is if you’re going to breed specifically for versatility, do so cautiously for a select few mares you know can pull it off. Like OP said, the RL sires give you the best chance but only with legit mares.

There also seems to be the most success with multi surface sprinters. Players better than I seem to have at least cracked the TS/AWS code. Milers would be the next easiest and routers feel next to impossible. I’m still amazed Longbird was as good as he was this recently in sim history

[John Smith]

Legit mares. huh?...well maybe that's my problem with all the other divisions too...getting legit mares: in progress!

[Evelyne Cergerac]

This is a very interesting topic, thank you for making it! Breeding versatile horse seems like a great challenge but also a money pit.

Would the same principle apply for distance versatility on a single surface? It feels like this would almost exclusively lead to a confused foals band.

[J.P Dogood]

Legit mares. huh?...well maybe that's my problem with all the other divisions too...getting legit mares: in progress!

Well let me bring up Longbird again. On one hand he’s super impressive in the idea that this game has been around for so long multi surfaces have pretty much been bred out BUT look at his pedigree.

Le vent se leve (RL sire) ended his career with 70+ in progeny earnings with dozens of offspring winning on every surface.

Songbird a RL mare and in game supermare produces stakes in multiple divisions.

I think at this point you need to start with RL and maybe over generations, with luck, keep the versatility

[Gwen Morse]

This is a very interesting topic, thank you for making it! Breeding versatile horse seems like a great challenge but also a money pit.

Would the same principle apply for distance versatility on a single surface? It feels like this would almost exclusively lead to a confused foals band.

Breeding of any sort is a money pit .

Yes, this would apply for any kind of versatility (distance, surface, flat/jumping). Whether they're **successful** is a whole different matter.

I've had some early success from Equestristud mares - who are usually treated as a joke. I feel like better mares will only do better.

[Autumn Blackmill]

Could be fun to play with the create-a-mares again for this purpose once they get revamped.

[Kelly Haggerty]

I am a fan of RL lines. On the versatility front, I will say that the layaway program has seen its share of versatile mares from players that have gotten frustrated trying to match them. I think this idea has potential and could be fun so long as people are willing to ride the ups and downs.